Josh Mankiewicz (Live from crimecon 2024)

This week’s episode is from CrimeCon 2024. I was honored to have a session to talk about my dad’s story and my current investigation. And to top it all off I was joined by NBC Dateline’s very own, Josh Mankiewicz. This was recorded before a few updates that I have addressed in the show. Recorded live on May 31, 2024 in Nashville, Tennessee here is my one on one with Josh Mankiewicz.

As an internationally recognized producer and host of the highly acclaimed podcast, Ice Cold Case. Your next speaker is a daughter on a mission to solve her father's murder after twenty-two years without answers. Please welcome Madison McGee. And joining Madison is NBC Dateline correspondent Josh Mankiewicz.

Whoa, this is crazy.

Oh, yeah. Tina Tinsley, could you move farther back? Because your hair is blinding me. Hi, everybody.

Hi. Um.

I'm delighted to, I would say I'm delighted to see all of you, except I can barely see any of you through these lights, but I'm gonna trust that you're here. I'm Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline. My session's tomorrow, but this is something that I was so anxious to do. I met Madison less than a year ago at a podcast meetup in Los Angeles, and then I listened to her podcast, which is called Ice Cold Case. And... It's a great story, it's a great mystery, and it's her story. And when it eventually is solved, the murder that she's investigating, she's gonna be on Dateline. And then probably, I would guess, in your local theater. But before we cast the movie, we're going to talk to all of you a little bit about sort of where it began, how it began in Madison's own story. So thank you for doing this.

Thank you. What an honor. And thanks for coming. Yeah, I'm new at this. This is weird for me.

Yeah. This is the best part of CrimeCon, because you get to meet the people who are on the other side of the microphone, which is why I come. I mean, okay, I love taking selfies, but it's actually to meet all of you. So. Let me start, just tell me a little bit about your childhood, tell me about your memories of your dad, and sort of how that evolved into when you learned that your dad did not die in the way that you had always been told that he died. So just. Give us a little background on that.

Yeah, so I grew up in Charleston, West Virginia, and my dad was murdered in Ohio, so like 2 and 1 hours away. And he was murdered when I was six. So. Memories, it's such a weird age because really, my dad died after two years of really remembering him because you don't remember a lot of those really early moments. So I have very faint memories of him showing up. So I played little kid soccer, and I was the little cheerleader, and he was showing up for those things, and I remember him being there. And I remember my sister is 10 years older than me, and he was really strict with her. And I remember her being like 16 and wanting to go out to parties and not being allowed. And then I don't remember anything because he wasn't there anymore because he had died. And my family told me that my dad had a heart attack and that's how he passed away.

And you believe that?

Of course. I mean, the only people in your life you believe when you're a kid are your family and that's it. you know, your dad had this health thing happen, no questions asked.

You don't even think someone got murdered. How did your life change after that?

Um, I mean, gosh, like, losing your parent at such a young age... I feel like in the beginning, you almost don't even realize that your life is different than other people until you get into more formative years when parents are picking up kids from school and other kids in your class have two parents around. And then you start to sort of realize, I'm not normal. I'm not in the traditional familial relationship that everyone else is having. And... I sort of justified that by just saying, well, health issues, my dad had a heart attack. So I could make sense of it in the way that like, this happens to people and sometimes they die. And that's sad, but I get it. And to find out at 16 that my dad was murdered shifted that process tremendously, because for 10 years I had processed this and like, okay, my dad's death is justified in the sense that he had a health complication. And now all of a sudden it is not. How'd you find out? So I was 16 and my mom and I were driving up to where my dad was buried in Ohio and we were taking a headstone to put on his grave. And while we were there, my mom asked if I wanted to see my dad's side of the family, which I had not spent a lot of time with since he passed away. So I said, sure, I wanted to see. My dad's mom was still alive, my cousins. So we went over to their house, we spent some time with them, we were leaving, and as we were walking away from the front door, I turned back around to say goodbye, and I locked eyes with one of my cousins, and I had like a visceral reaction to seeing him. It felt like someone had punched me in the stomach, and the wind was quite literally knocked out of my lungs, so I hurled forward, and my mom was like, are you okay? What's going on? I caught my breath, and I looked at my mom, also seeing my dad's death as a heart attack, and I asked her if my cousin Omar was there when my dad had a heart attack.

Because of the way he was looking at you.

I just had this feeling that he was there. And I asked my mom that, and I said, I just, it's almost like I'm watching it as a movie. And I'm seeing him there, and he's not helping him. And my mom broke down, we pulled over, we went to a Buffalo Wild Wings, and in that My mom told me that my dad was actually murdered and a lot of people think that Omar was potentially there, had something to do with it, knew information that he wasn't sharing and it was very weird that I had this idea that was going on without knowing the full context. And so that was when I found out and then my whole world changed.

And did your mother tell you the full story?

No.

As she knew it? So you had to drag this out of members of your family who had essentially kept it from you for 10 years.

100% and I think if I had not asked that day, I would have never been in a position to ever ask and I would have never known.

Alright, so what do you do? How do you, I mean, so your reporting begins by trying to get your own family to sort of give up the secrets.

Yeah, I mean when I first started looking into this it was get police reports but it was also like talk to my family about what really happened because this community is very small. All of my dad's family lived there. So they all knew, you know, at least the rumblings, the rumor. the stories that were going around and no one, I mean somehow I was completely shielded from this.

So, okay, so, so I mean, who's helpful and who's not inside your family?

No one is helpful.

Really?

They all, they all just want to keep up this idea that like, we don't want to talk about this. Yeah, I mean, it's weird because my family loves to go online and say that they will help and do anything that they can. And then when it's like sitting down talking to them one on one, it's, well, I don't know why you're looking into this. I don't know why you're doing this. Like, you're just wasting your time. Stop dragging us into this. Stop talking about it. it gets really weird. Families are weird, especially in these situations.

At the end of our Dateline episode, after this is eventually solved, we will not be doing a thing about how you and your family are all buds again.

Oh, absolutely not.

That's the kind of ending I like.

Yeah. Absolutely not, I mean I'm getting like, when I first launched the show, I mean first I thought no one was gonna listen, so there was that, but I also was like, if my family does, like they'll be pretty supportive, right? And they are the only people still to this day that have said anything negative about the show. I've gotten so many, I mean like weird messages, like threats, it's been really wild, all from family members.

All telling you what, don't disturb this,

Yeah, bringing skeletons out of the closet. Don't drag my name into this. I can't believe you said this about me. I mean, these are names that are in police files. It's not like I'm just like pulling at straws. Like this is like, I'm reading straight from the file and then connecting the dots. And they're like, why are you bringing me up?

So a member of your family is murdered and the police are telling you more about this than any family member, including family members who clearly were not involved in any way.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, half of these people like just maybe know a little bit. but they weren't there and they aren't like, you know, directly involved with anyone. They've just like, oh, I heard this rumor. And even they're like, I'm not gonna tell you that. I'm not gonna talk about that. And if you bring up that I know even a little bit, I'm gonna threaten to kill you.

So police files ended up being more. more useful to you, gave you more information than anybody that you knew?

Yeah, definitely provided context. Useful, I don't know about that. I have only really heavily investigated one case ever. It's my dad's. You've looked at way more case files than I have, but my dad's case file for a murder investigation that now is 22 years old was 36 pages.

Okay, so you're not a journalist or you weren't before this, certainly, right? And you had not investigated, you were not a professional investigator?

No.

You know, what made you think you could go ahead and do it?

Delusion. Um, I... I don't know, there was just something, I'm a naturally curious person. There was just something that was like, I need to look into this. I'm also very creative and I like television production, which is my background.

Which is what you were doing.

Yeah, so I thought, okay.

But not TV news.

No, no, no. I thought if I could just. get enough information, maybe I could start putting the pieces together. I mean, naively I was like, I've listened to a couple of podcasts, I could probably do that. And that's so, like what was I thinking?

All right, so you get information from the police reports and you're trying to pry stuff out of your family and then I presume you're also going to talk to people who are mentioned in the police reports, maybe who aren't members of your family.

Oh yeah, showing up at doors.

And how often do people say, okay yeah, come on in and talk, and how often do they say, I don't want to talk about you or your dad or any of that.

Ironically, a lot of people let me talk to them. And in the beginning, it was like, I think there was this level of, we don't know what this is gonna be. I have a really powerful quote from my very first interview with the investigators where he knew I was recording. I mean, the phone is sitting right in front of him. I got his permission, all the things. He signed a release and he looks at me halfway through and it's like, well, it's not like you're gonna make a podcast about this or anything. I don't think anybody thought I was gonna do anything with this. I think they were like, oh, she's just asking questions, she's kind of annoying, like she just won't stop emailing us, like we'll meet with her. Just to shut her up.

Right.

So they were very willing in the beginning, and then it was like a month before the show came out, I got emails from like almost every family member I interviewed, you can't use this.

Too late.

And so, yeah. So that was kind of crazy. I think it was once like the trailer had dropped and I had started posting. made an Instagram account that they were like, oh, she's actually doing this.

So you'd never done a podcast before?

I had done like a little Big Brother recap podcast to practice making a podcast.

Right.

So no.

probably counts, I mean. And the money for this came from your own pocket.

Yeah, I used all my savings and every credit card I've ever had. was just like I'm just gonna put everything into this. I'm gonna fly to Ohio, I'm gonna interview these people, I'm gonna pay an audio guy to come with me, I'm just gonna gather as much as I can and fund this because it's the most important thing to me in my life.

One of the things that drew me to your story was how sort of, for our purposes, I was listening to it, I was thinking, could this be a story that we would do? And the answer was like, absolutely. First of all, we haven't said your dad's name. What was his name?

John Cornelius McGhee.

Known as JC. Okay, so JC was in the drug trade.

Yes.

And JC also, we found this out through you, was an informant.

Yes.

So either one of those things could get you killed.

100%.

And in fact, the people who killed him may have thought that the house was full of drugs or full of money, and it's also quite conceivable that they were angry at him worked as an informant. Neither of those things would be a surprise. And he was about to testify in a completely separate court case.

Yeah, a custody battle.

Tell me about that, which could have cost somebody else a tremendous amount of money.

Yes, so it's, and this is what's so crazy about this case is just the avenues that I needed to explore to like identify just motive and then going from there to find suspects and all of those things was crazy. But yeah, so I had a little brother, Shane, I still, he's alive, I have a little brother, Shane. He's like, I'm right here. He was seven months or eight months old when our dad was murdered. And his mom was for sure not capable of taking care of him. But because systems just really favor the moms, she had full custody. And my dad was fighting very hard in court for full custody of Shane because she really care of him. And the final hearing for that custody battle was the day after my dad was murdered. So obviously he was never there. And so that added a really interesting element. Deneen is Shane's mom. She's passed away. And her boyfriend at the time, Butchie, is still alive. And so he's someone that really ironically kind of took over the father figure for my brother Shane. And still visits him, spends time with him.

And so... I presume at some point police looked at Butchie as a potential suspect.

He was the first person they interviewed.

If I were a cop investigating a murder and one of the people involved was named Butchie... Ha ha ha! Before I had lunch or coffee, I would get him into a room. But yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, he was the first person they interviewed and the first person they dismissed. It's the wildest thing in the show, I mean this detective. It's crazy, I couldn't believe it. He's like, yeah, I mean, but she told us that he hated your dad, but he would never kill him. And we said, okay, and he left. And that was it.

So like where he was at the time of the murder, you've seen, we've all seen police departments. work really hard on murders, some of them involving people who were in the process of breaking the law. trade and then we've seen we've seen other investigations in which the feeling was sort of you know I don't care if these guys kill each other. This feels like that at different times it was one and at different times was the other.

Totally it's so weird there they did end up taking someone to a grand jury who they thought did it and then very suspiciously dropped the charges but even to get someone to a grand jury takes time and effort and you have to have enough to you know do all of that and So I don't know, it's weird because in some ways it's like, okay, they're making headway, they're doing something. And then the next day it's like, anyways, we don't have time for this or we just don't care. And now it's been 22 years and there hasn't been movement on this in so long. When I started calling asking questions, people were, I mean, it was like they were talking to a ghost.

Well, I mean, hence your title, Ice Cold Case. And complicating this, I think, is that we're not talking about a big city department.

Oh, yes, small town.

We're talking about a small department which doesn't have a lot of people to work on the cases that are coming in today, let alone the ones that are sitting on the cold case shelf.

And that's a problem with a lot of departments, particularly in sort of a time of limited resources. Yeah, but in the same sense, there's less happening in these small towns. So it's not like they're getting an influx of cases like LA, but they don't have the staff. They don't have a murder every day. And it's like a murder every few years in this town. And even then, they only have like a handful of cold cases. So it's just a really interesting dynamic. Small towns are weird. This part of the country is really weird. Appalachia, I'm from there. It's just a really interesting place. And yeah, just the level of resources and time and attention, I think. I mean, I think people in these parts of the country, just like technology-wise, are very 10, 15 years behind a major city. So even the knowing to do something is not there.

When police identified someone and took them to a grand jury, or at least convened a grand jury, did you think they were on the right track? Did you think they have the right guy?

Well, I was six, but.

Oh, so that happened all the way back then.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was probably seven, but yeah. They took this guy, Darrell Smith, all the way to the grand jury. When I started my show and my investigation, that's where I started. So there is this level of, I'm quite critical of the police in my case, but there was a level of, well, maybe they're on the right path. So that's where I started. He was the first person I really went all the way through the process of going like, could it be him? And there was a moment in time where I was like, they might've been right. But then you wonder, okay, they think it was him. They still tell me to this day, well, Darryl did it. Okay, then why'd you let him go? if you think this guy killed someone, that you're just like, whatever, let him go. They say at the time they didn't have enough evidence, but my thought would be, well then we need to find enough. If you really believe he did it, Keep investigating. You have to keep going. And since then, he's never been brought back at all for this murder.

You spoke with Darryl Smith.

I did.

Tell us about that, because I, that feels like sort of death-defying work.

Yeah. It was such an unexpected turn. I did my show because my dad's case was, no one knew about it at all. So you couldn't even Google who J.C. McGhee was. So I thought, okay, I'll make nine episodes and I'll tell this story in a really compelling way so all of you will listen and then there will be some articles and now people will have an idea of what happened to my dad and maybe someone on Reddit will help me solve this case. Or maybe it'll just sort of light a fire onto the department.

Right.

And I put out nine episodes and then, you know, I was like, well, let's just see what happens. And in that time, I did a little bit of research on where Daryl Smith was because I did want to talk to him, but I was a little nervous, especially putting out the show, What Would Happen. He was in prison for an unrelated, smaller petty drug crime and had a seven-year sentence. He was convicted. He was in jail. So I was like, okay, I feel really confident putting out this show because he's behind bars and if I do want to talk to him I can write him a letter maybe get added to his list and do visiting through a glass wall and I'll feel really safe. In December of last year 2023 I wake up at six in the morning to a message on Facebook from Daryl Smith that he had listened to my podcast twice and he wanted to talk to me. he had gotten out of prison.

And he's across the street.

Yeah.

And. Your lawn needs some work, he said.

Yeah. So I freaked out and didn't know what to do. I waited a little bit and I just replied and I said, when are you free? And I flew out to Ohio and we met on the West Virginia side in the Ohio County Public Library. And we sat about this far away from each other.

And you picked that location because you thought it felt safe.

Yeah. Public Library.

And it probably was.

And yeah, we met and we talked for about two and a half, three hours and it was, It's just absolutely wild.

And how much of this is in the podcast?

A lot of it. And there's more to come. I put, there's like, I kind of coined them as like the Darrell episodes. It's episode 11 and 12. But he has more to add that I didn't, haven't put in yet that's coming. I mean, he shed a lot of light on certain things, but what's really interesting is how attuned my family is to this podcast. As soon as those episodes released, I got a message from a family. member who I do believe is heavily involved in my dad's murder who is also currently in prison. And he reached out, he has never spoken to me, I don't believe I've ever met him in person, I think he's always been in prison every time I've been there. He reached out via his daughter and said add me to this app to talk to me. And he was like I can't believe you talked to Darryl, he killed your dad. And so that. really added an interesting element, and now I'm talking with him, but it's just like, and this is just what happens. It's like you put it out there, and then something happens, and something happens.

Darrell Smith tried to talk you out of the idea that he was the murderer.

I left meeting with him, and I remember calling my producer, and I was like, what do we do now? Darrell didn't kill my dad. After you met with him, you didn't think it was him. But only because, things that really make me question, you know, the police’s handling of the case and maybe they tried to pin it on him because that was easier to do, but also just in my mind I'm thinking like, this is gonna sound crazy talking to people who listen to true crime all the time, I was like what killer would like sit next to me at a library and talk to me? So obviously he didn't do it, right? Delusional!

That might not be the metric that I would use. Because sometimes they do think they're the smartest person in the room. And that's why they talk to the cops. And that's why they sometimes make the mistake of talking to us. So. Yeah.

But like me? I don't know.

So it seems like, it seems as if Darrell at least made you think twice.

Totally, I mean he definitely had me thinking about, I mean I knew that there were multiple people there that day, so he really had me thinking about who the other people were and if I was on the right path with that, and really questioning the motive piece.

When you look at the three possible motives, right? He was a drug dealer, maybe he had a house full of cash that also had drugs in it. He was a snitch. because he turned in a friend of mine and he might turn me in, and the custody battle. Which one of those is in the driver's seat?

Well, I know which one's in your driver's seat.

What do you think?

Custody battle.

Well, maybe, but it feels like that was gonna get resolved regardless.

Yeah, I don't know, I just don't really, I think it was.

The custody battle feels to me like the Dateline smoke screen.

Yeah.

Right? Like we would play that up, but that wouldn't be it. And that's what I think. I'm waiting. Sorry. When you watch the episode, it's all spoiled.

No, I do think you're right.

I don't think it was that.

It had to have been drug related in my mind. I am very much on. the hunch right now that it was because my dad was an informant and I think he turned someone in that was very powerful and really controlling a lot of the drug activity in this area who had a lot of people, whether or not the hit was put out, would act on behalf of this person. And I think that is... I have this weird... This is like nobody... I haven't talked about this yet. I had a theory throughout sort of the through line throughout the first nine episodes that I end with, you know, this is what I think probably happened and now I need to go and like really dive deeper to see if I can prove or disprove this theory. And then my conversation with Darryl really sent me down a rabbit hole. And I've heard from a lot of people recently, and I'm going through sort of my own Rolodex of information that I have. And I think I really was on to something. And I might have been like nearly spot on. that my dad had informed on someone who had the resources to like take care of it and probably did. And I'm about to talk to that person, so.

And that doesn't, and I was gonna say, and that's not Darryl, that's somebody else.

It's not Darryl.

Right, so. Yeah. So you've almost convinced yourself that you were wrong about what you thought originally.

Yeah, I mean that was the whole premise for, we did, we're in the middle of the next nine episodes, which is like part two, and the whole purpose of part two was like, the premise was, is it wrong to be wrong? Was I wrong, and is that okay? Does that lead me down the right path? How do we get to the answer? This is an active investigation on my behalf, so I might throw out something that isn't right, and I have to course correct, Oh my gosh, was I right though? What if I'm right?

Anybody in your family say keep going or they all say stop?

Oh, everyone says stop. And for different reasons. My mom says stop because she doesn't want me to die. My cousins say stop because they could end up in prison.

Well, it seems like they would meet a lot of your other family if they did that.

Yeah, we can have a family reunion.

Yeah. I mean.

Silver lining. Yeah, I'll bring the hot dogs. Yeah. What's been the attitude of the police department since your podcast first became available? I mean, don't tell me they didn't listen to it.

They did. Oh yeah, for sure. They did one interview publicly ever with the local news since the show came out and it's burned in my brain. The lead investigator said that I gave this case the shot in the arm that it needed. to get solved and that was in July of last year and I haven't heard from them since I haven't been I haven't had an email Returned I haven't received a phone call I've reached out, you know, probably monthly at this point and I haven't heard from them at all.

So When you call them do they say leave us alone or they just don't call you back

They just don't call me back So I'm hesitant to say they aren't doing anything because I guess it's you know Don't make an assumption, but I would venture to say they're probably

Are you running across their tracks anywhere does anybody you talk to say the police called me one to know about this No, I Put up a billboard in front of the Belmont County prosecutors office Uh-huh. You like physically couldn't pull into the office without seeing this billboard. And I put up a few more around town.

And it says, what, who killed J.C. McGee? Yeah. And Belmont County's not doing anything about it?

No, yeah, it says help me solve my dad's murder. And yeah, that didn't really do much. I now have actually last CrimeCon. I made these tote bags that said, did you kill my dad on them? And I gave like 500 away. And so my next billboard is going in front of the Belmont County Sheriff's Department, and it's going to say, did you kill my dad?

I kind of feel like you may have sort of missed your calling.

Marketing?

I mean, it does feel like you might be honest up there. And so tell me what, I mean... On one level, it's gotta feel great to do that, right? To sort of, you know, I mean, they're not answering your calls, so they're gonna look at that every day when they go out for coffee or leave work for whatever reason. Has it done anything? I mean, you know, has it been polarizing or did anybody call you, anybody talking to you off the record?

It's been actually really helpful. I was in sort of, I live in LA, so in a very like LA way, I was like, in LA, but it was actually way more helpful to get this like cheap billboard in the town it happened in because I'm getting calls and emails from people I've never heard of before that are like I knew your dad or I knew Darryl or I my mom dated Darryl at the time of your dad's murder and like I saw your billboard and so it's drummed up a lot and even Darryl says it's like the funniest thing. His interview is crazy you just have to listen because if like, oh, he didn't do it. But that's beside the point. Um. He says, he's like, you're the talk of the town. Everyone's talking about this podcast. So in a way it was like, yes, I want everyone to listen because I think that will put a lot of pressure on Belmont County, especially if people in like, you know, Indiana are listening. But it's actually been really nice that like, if everyone in this town is talking about it, that's really all I need, right? If they're going to keep talking about it, it's going to get back to Belmont County because it's very small. So that was something that really stood out to me was like, Darrell's like, you can't go anywhere about this. So if anything, going from my dad's case not being Google-able at all, to you can't, I can't go there and stay the night in a hotel without someone being like, oh, Madison McGee.

So. Okay, I realize I'm probably sounding like somebody's dad here, but when you do go there, you go there alone?

Yes. But because it's too expensive to like, I went one time with like a crew of people. It was when I was like working a lot and like I had a lot of TV shows that I was doing. But like when I met with Darryl, I went by myself because I couldn't afford to bring anyone with me. So I like flew into my hometown, which is like two and a half hours away. And I like pick up my grandma Subaru and I like drive up and stay the night. And I like a hotel that's like, you know, 20 minutes away. And... I mean... I mean, I'm alive.

Yeah. For now.

You know, I mean... If I get killed, do I get a Dateline episode?

Oh yeah, yeah. But let's not, let's do this without getting to that point, is my request here. I mean, you know, I think that, you know, I think that trying to solve your father's murder and in the process dig up the secrets of a small town, you know, sounds like the plot line to a movie. But when it's really happening, it can be of no small risk to the person that's doing it. And I would actually say to you. like you really should be careful.

Yeah, I mean I am, I joke, but I am. I mean I did go by myself, that wasn't a joke, but I try to be as careful as possible. It's tough, like we're comparing apples to oranges here, but NBC will fly you wherever. I have to figure out how to do this by myself.

Right, but the people I interview, I mean when I'm talking to somebody or maybe they haven't been convicted yet or the trial hasn't started. They're always on their best behavior with me. I mean, I'm less worried about Daryl because Daryl's trying to convince you he didn't have anything to do with it. And that's like the murderers that I sit across, which is like, no, this is a big mistake. I'm not that guy. The police have the wrong guy. They hate me, don't believe everything they say. But it's the other people and the people who have a vested interest. I have no idea how to open that thing. We're never, yeah. I tried to open my water earlier. I knew that if I continued I would pour it all over me. So if you figure it out let me know.

Oh, I will.

And then they said to me, well when I came in here they were like, this is your Tumblr for the rest of Crime Count. I'm like, oh that's good, so I'm going to die at Crime Count because I'm not going to be able to get any water. So this is a cruel hoax.

It's true, it's true.

That's being, so you know, there are other people out there who have the best understanding and you not asking any more questions and there not being more episodes of the podcast. And so, you know, that's what I'm worried about. I don't, I'm not worried about the, I actually don't worry about the Darrells of the world because I meet those guys and they're all like, no, you know, I'm gonna listen to God.

Yeah, I get a little worried. I'm pretty careful about like, I don't know, like my address, like the Jehovah's Witnesses got ahold of my address and I got like a stack of weird letters.

About this?

Yeah, just like, oh, like, you know, we can help you talk to the dead and like all this weird stuff. And then like a pamphlet for Jehovah's Witnesses. And I got one and I thought that was weird and then it was like, my mailman. had to get ahold of my building manager and was like, can you call this girl? We have a stack of like 500 letters. They won't fit in her mailbox.

They were all, no fan mail.

It was all Jovo's witnesses. But so I had to like do some stuff to like protect my address and other things like that. Yeah, I get the weird messages from my family, the death threats. I was a little worried about in the beginning and then I really thought about it. And I was like, these people are not flying from Ohio to LA. to kill me. They're just internet trolls. They just happen to be related to me. And they throw suspicion on themselves. So now I'm like, oh great, now I look down this avenue and then you're not gonna like the next episode. Your best interest would have been to just be quiet.

So when you're doing something like this, I mean, and it's on your own dime, how do you know if anybody is out there listening? I mean, you can count the downloads, but I mean, how do you get traction without a big TV network? promoting you like we do.

Um, my marketing. And that's why I put so much emphasis on the bags and the billboards. And I made 500 friendship bracelets for CrimeCon that say ice cold case on them. And I do whatever it takes within my realm to do to talk about it. And coming to a place like this where it is full of people who are really passionate about true crime and cold cases and solving things and listening to shows is really helpful. And yeah, I don't know, it's tough. I didn't think anyone was gonna listen. I'm shocked that I even know you. It's just, this is such a weird position to be in because in the beginning when I launched independently, it really was like, I hit upload, and it was like, oh, now we wait.

Right, and when did you realize that you were connecting with somebody out there?

The first episode charted, which I thought was kind of weird and crazy, I was very grateful for it. But even then it didn't really hit. It was like, oh, what a fluke, or oh, their algorithm is really wild if I'm up there. So I think it was when, this is actually a really weird, I was at a wedding and I was ordering a wine at the bar. And this woman was staring at me and I was like. this is really strange, and I was like, hello. She was like, I was listening to your voice all morning. And I was like, oh, and she was like, yeah, my husband and I were listening to your podcast. Now, we were at a wedding for a mutual friend who I'm sure had posted about the podcast. It's not like it was like, you know, oh, you found me randomly, but that was like, oh, that's crazy that people I don't know are listening. And I think that moment was like a really pivotal moment where I was like, beyond to something here and then just a few weeks later I started hearing from people who live in that town and were you know, even just people who are like, oh, I remember your dad. He was so nice and They weren't providing any real information But just the fact that it was reaching people who knew my dad who I never would have met otherwise I never would have connected with I was like, okay now we're starting to like get out there \

How many people you spoken with so far? What do you think?

Probably like that knew my dad or had information.

Just that had information.

Probably like 100.

And you know, I mean, this has come at no small personal cost to you.

Oh, I am. An emotional wreck. It's been brutal on my financial, emotional, mental, physical life in every facet. I... someone was talking to me about, oh, if you could do this over again, what would you do? And I was like, I wouldn't do it. It's been brutal.

You want to go into a little more detail about that?

Sure. It's just such an emotional roller coaster, too. I'm going to cry. to put your life out there in this way. I remember hearing from friends I went to high school with. who had listened to the podcast, which also is a testament to its success. I think getting people you know to listen or watch something you do is like the hardest thing. Strangers, it's like, yeah, okay, but getting people who actually know you to like listen to your podcast, it's like no chance. So the fact that my friends from high school were listening was really interesting. I remember them reaching out. There's one episode, episode two, where I really dive into like some of my really deep personal trauma with my mom. And they all were texting me after that episode came out and they were like, we had no idea that this even happened to you. And I think putting my life out on display in that way, sort of in an attempt to connect with an audience, in an attempt to solve my dad's murder, is definitely not my plan A, B or C. And it, you know, deeply impacts my ability to connect with people in my personal life. It's just hard. It's just been really hard.

You have to have thought to yourself, maybe I won't do this anymore.

Every day.

But here you are.

Yeah. I did an interview, which was spectacular, with People Magazine, which was so wild. And I said something I didn't even remember saying until I read the article, which was, I will stop at nothing to solve this case. And... I mean, I'm already this far. I've already ruined my life, you know? The only way out is through. So now I'm here and I'm gonna keep going because I now have nothing to lose. I didn't realize, I guess, in the beginning how much mental tenacity I did have to lose. And now I've lost it, so whatever.

What do you need from everybody listening today and what do you need from your audience?

Like keep talking about my dad. You know, it's so easy. There's so many amazing people at this conference who have dealt with such a great loss. But it's so easy to connect with those stories because the victims feel like you, right? You're a good person. And these other people didn't deserve to die. And it's very hard to connect with a drug dealer turned informant. who lived in Ohio. And, you know, if you spend half of the amount of time talking about my dad, that you do these other cases, I think it might get solved. And at the very least, Balmont County will be very upset. Um. And so I think that's just like the most important thing. And that's why I did this. Thank you. How embarrassing. Um, no worry, waterproof anything. Um. But I think that's just the most important thing is listen, share it, talk about it in the same way. I mean, you're all obviously fans of true crime. This is not a cheap conference to come to. So you're talking about this at least half of your free time, I'm sure, in watching Dateline on Friday nights, two hours every Friday. Um. So, you know, talk about my dad too. Throw that in there. You know, if you're researching something or you're adding something to a website, there's so many amazing websites I'm meeting today where you can add cold cases to them or whatever. Like, you know, I don't know.

What's still to come?

Oh gosh.

I mean, you have material that hasn't come out yet.

Yes.

So what's ahead?

We're finishing out part two over the next, you know, probably 10 weeks and.

Which is how many episodes?

Five. And, you know, putting, I'm gonna finish putting out all the information that I've collected, and then I'll take a little bit more time off to investigate more as it comes in. But, I mean, I thought we started with a bang, and that we, I was worried that we weren't gonna have enough to finish nine episodes, and then I have this interview that I'm doing next week that I think will, I mean, maybe we're done, maybe it's solved, I don't know. it's getting to a point where every interview is like groundbreaking.

Is it enough if you know or does that person have to be tried prosecuted and locked up? We'll be right back.

In the beginning...

That's commercial break right there.

In the beginning I thought to myself... about this a lot because I knew if I started, I would have to sort of know what that bar would be before I began, because I think having goals is like really important, and I didn't want to set myself up for disappointment or failure. So in the beginning I was like, you know what, if I can go to bed at night and know who killed my dad, and nothing else comes of it, it's been 22 years. Like this person, if they haven't been in prison for something else, has already been living their life. What's spending the last 10 years of their life in jail for me.

But it might be satisfying in ways you haven't thought of.

Maybe at the time I was like, I just want to know. I don't care about anything else. Now I don't know if this person can ever go through a trial because It's not as easy as all of us saying, I think they did it. There's police involved, the prosecutors have to decide to take it to trial. There's so many different elements to it.

Which they almost certainly will not do unless they think there is not just a case, but a great case.

Right, and DNA evidence is wildly important to do that, especially after 22 years, and I don't believe that there is any. And so there's a really just difficult, there's a lot of difficult red tape to get through. The only way I think will get solved in court is through witness testimony. I do believe there were four people there that day, and only one of them could have pulled the trigger because my dad was killed with one gunshot to the head. So that means there's three people who have the opportunity to say, yeah, I was there, and this is what happened.

Is there any chance that one of them will crack without the leverage of a police investigation or that they will be arrested or charged? I mean, is there anybody who's sort of?

I mean, maybe if they're on their deathbed.

Right.

But I don't know. I don't know, especially in this town, especially given the context that my dad probably died from being an informant, is someone really going to come forward and snitch? I don't know.

You're gonna do five more episodes of this.

Yeah.

And then? And then, a Dateline episode, hopefully.

Yeah.

The podcast is called Ice Cold Case. It is hosted by and indefatigable reported by Madison McGhee. Thank you all.

Oh man. Yeah, I guess thanks for coming.

Thank you so much for listening to Ice Cold Case. Special thank you to CrimeCon for giving me the opportunity to have a session this year and Josh Mankiewicz for saying yes to joining me. If you didn’t already know, you can find Josh on NBC’s Dateline and where I find him to be equal parts hilarious and informative on Twitter at Josh Mankiewicz. 

Please continue supporting this show by downloading, rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you are listening. To submit any information, please email icecoldcasepodcast@gmail.com. A video version of this episode is available on our youtube channel. I’ll be back next time to continue my investigation into my dad’s unsolved murder.