Families vs. Investigators (with Sarah Turney)

This week, I am very excited to release my first ever bonus episode. These episodes will provide more context, new perspectives, and my personal thoughts on this journey. As we enter the halfway point of Part 2, I want to take a moment to sit with all the new information I have learned about my dad’s murder so far. Right now in the story, things are very intense between my family and the police, with one throwing blame at the other and progress seemingly stuck on a loop. Today, I am speaking with someone who is very familiar with that process. You may know her from her podcast, Voices for Justice, or from social media where she uses her platform to advocate for victims and families. Sarah Turney’s story is equal parts heartbreaking and inspiring. I am very honored to have her with me to share her journey, but also talk about what happens when the family and investigators don’t align. Sarah is well-versed in what it means to take a case into her own hands, and do whatever it takes to get closure. We discuss complex family dynamics, the struggle putting yourself and your story on display, what it means to fight for justice, and so much more . And now, here is my conversation with Sarah Turney. 

Welcome, Sarah Turney. How is it going? How are you? 

I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. How are you? 

I'm great. Thank you for joining me. I'm really, really excited about this conversation. Just to kick it off, like, tell us a little bit about you. Your journey, your story. 

Sure. My name is Sarah Turney, and I am the sister of missing teenager Ellis attorney. It's a very long story, but to keep it short, my sister Alyssa went missing in 2001. I became the family contact when I was a teenager, and at a certain point, the police sat me down and said, we believe your father killed your sister. There's not much we can do. We suggest you get media. And I did exactly that, which is why I'm sitting here today. I went on TikTok. I created a podcast called voices for justice, and eventually my father was arrested for her murder, but then acquitted. So now I am here just trying to help my sister still, as well as help some other families. 

Amazing. What you do is just so noble, but also the resilience. You have to have to like, help other people while you're still sort of dealing with this like unresolved case is truly just outstanding. I would love just briefly to like, hear a little bit about your sister and like, who she was and what she was like. I feel like that's a piece that sometimes is missing from stories, but we get to tell that side of the the victims. 

So yeah. No, I love talking about Alissa. And, what's funny is if you would have asked me when I was 12, when she went missing, I would have said, you know, she's the meanest big sister ever. Because, you know, we were truly sisters and we were four years apart, which meant a lot of me wanting to hang out with her while I was, like, not cool enough. You know what I mean? I wanted to steal her clothes and all those things. But she was truly so sweet. Really kind of like a Sour Patch kid. Because if you messed with her, you didn't want to do that. But, she'd always come back around and just, like, the sweetest thing, you know, of course, she was also going through some really difficult times that I didn't know about and wasn't able to understand as a child. So Alyssa was in this unique position where she was not only my sister, but essentially the only mother I ever had growing up. Our mom passed when we were very, very young, and so she would do my laundry and take care of me and do my hair, and she had just a massive amount of responsibility. But through it all, she continued to be kind and be this extremely bright light. Just really what I would say is like the epitome of the cool teenage older sister. That's how I still see her today. 

I love that it's also funny because my older sister is also Alyssa, so it's a very. For all the similarities, it's another added element to our stories, which I think is very interesting. So in your story, even in just sort of the synopsis, the really key element is this interesting dynamic between the family and the police and. I find that the media attention is almost unwelcomed in my story, which is very interesting that that was sort of the recommendation, but I can't get over how interesting it is that. The police, who are sort of meant to solve cases and investigate and are paid to do that, are telling you like get on social media and like that will help us do our job. It's such an interesting dynamic. So I don't know if you can talk a little bit more about how that felt, what that was like, sort of the like I feel like I would be like a punch in the gut to hear that and think, like what? What do you want me to do? That versus you do what you're supposed to do. 

Yeah. I mean, to be totally honest, I still don't know how I feel about it. I don't know if it was a genuine recommendation or kind of them telling me, like, good luck in the future. Maybe you should get some media. I will say that that particular detective who told me that, has told another family the same thing. They sat down, the family of Brandi Myers and said, we know what happened to her. Down to the color of trash bags she was disposed in. But we can't help you get media. So it's very odd. And maybe it is Phenix specific. I'm not quite sure, but, you know, really, at that point, when they told me I had been the family contact for maybe ten years. I mean, I've been dealing with this since I was a kid, essentially. And so I just took it as a directive. I will say that they at first I thought they were going to help. You know, crazy, crazy idea there. But they said, you know, we're going to do all these radio spots for your sister through the Silent Witness program, and your sister is going to have a billboard on every freeway in Phenix. And she didn't get a single one when I asked them to, do something like, we had an offer to, do a panel at Crime Con, actually, with, you know, some really well known people. They said, we don't think that's the right audience. So every step of the way, they have refused to do this media with me while also telling me to get media. So I'm still confused about it. But yeah, I mean, it is the hardest journey of my life. I am still very much an introvert. I don't love being on camera. I don't like being in front of a microphone. I used to like, do events and marketing behind the scenes. I worked with kids in foster care. I was never, someone who thought they were going to be some type of influencer or, you know, name and true crime. I just wanted to help my sister and. Eventually after going on every podcast, never YouTube channel I could think of. I mean, I did everything. I went to an apartment up with these people who had two subscribers on YouTube. I was like, let's go. Well, I don't care. I will talk about my sister in any form or medium, wherever I can to get her story out there. And then eventually, you know, I was told, why don't you just make your own content? And so that's kind of what I did, but, it's hard. Like I said, I still don't know. What the police think about me getting media. If they really sent me on this mission with a purpose or to make me go away. I don't know. 

Yeah. Well. And I think it's so interesting, the. Interactions with. The family of victims and the police. Even when I reached out. To get information, case files, etc. I the very first question they asked me was am I a family member or am I a journalist? And I was curious why the response would be any different. Regardless, if you're going to hand over the case files to a journalist, why wouldn't you hand them over to the family member? And so I remember in that moment, having to make sort of a split second decision of like what I was going to respond as and what would the reaction be either way? And I can't help but wonder if I would have gotten the case files quicker had I said I was a journalist. And that interaction can always be like hit or miss. Have you? You've talked to a lot of families now and and met with victims and families of victims. Have you noticed any difference in interactions that they're having with the police versus someone who's maybe writing an article for the LA times or making a podcast, sort of unrelated as a third party person? 

So I think a lot of my answer is about true crime, which can be frustrating, are, you know, it depends. And I think that's the honest truth. You know, I can say in my case, the Phenix Police Department were they were happy to hand over my sister's case file to a journalist that they had a relationship with that they liked. And when I asked for the case file, I wasn't sure I was going to get it. So I think it just depends on whether or not the trust is there. To be totally honest, I think sometimes officers look at family members as. I mean, I don't think there's any real PC way to say it. I think they see us as extremely emotional and kind of like loose cannons. And I think that they fear if they give us the case file, we're going to go crazy. Which it's such a hard battle because if you release it to a journalist, why not to the family? That's my argument. If you're going to release it to one, just release it to all. And make it fair there. But I see it all the time. And I think the, the best way to improve these relationships between law enforcement and families is just transparency and honesty. You know, the Phenix Police Department didn't need to tell me that my sister was going to have a billboard on every freeway in Phenix. They set me up for disappointment, and they knew that. So when I come back and I'm upset about that and they go, whoa, you're being emotional. It's insane to me. It's absolutely insane to me. I think most families, when they're set up with reasonable expectations that are then met. There's not a lot of hatred there. There's, there's just a much better working relationship when you set up realistic expectations and then meet them. And I think that's what those relationships are really missing, is we're really kind of sold the world. And then when we ask and follow up about all these things that they promised us, they act like we're insane. And that's when all this. Bad blood happens. 

Yeah, totally. How has your relationship with Phenix Police evolved over time? Because now you've gone through a trial and an acquittal. And now what? How has that shifted from the beginning when they first said, well, we think we know who did it, and you just have to get attention. 

Yeah, I mean, it depends on the officer, but I will say that, after that, our relationship got pretty bad. I mean, they weren't updating me, her detectives that I had known for ten years, these guys that I knew since I was 17, were reassigned, and I was dealing with new people who didn't know about my sister's case. And when I, you know, let me just say I make an effort to communicate with the police as if I'm in a business transaction. But it's their job. They're just doing their job, and I try to make it, as crazy as it sounds, I try to remove as much emotion as I can because I feel like they just respond better to that. But even then, you know, I would be like, this is, you know, by a 42nd follow up to try to get a meeting with you guys. I would love to speak with you. And they just. Like I said, it depends on the officer, but I've gone through some. Really. If once and when you know your loved ones. Case, when you've read that case file and you're dealing with a brand new detective who has maybe skimmed it, it's going to create some bad blood there because you're like, what are you doing? You don't know this case. How are you going to help this case? You know, one of my most talked about conversations and episodes throughout my sister's case is when I talk to the commander of her unit. Really? It's episode 24 on my podcast. So you know my sister's story by now. And I go in and talk to this woman who's brand new to the case, and she's telling me things like, there's no accusations of sexual assault in your sister's case file, and my mind explodes because I'm like, there's over 12 people in these documents that have talked about it. What are you talking about? And now it's about saving face. And that's when they start going. Well, no, that's not exactly what you're reading. They try to just kind of. I mean, they gaslight you. And I think, again, that's where things get really bad in these relationships is when they stop being honest because they're afraid you're going to expose them. And I don't know what the remedy is for that, because at the end of the day, my job is to fight for my sister, not to make you look good. But I will say also, you know, I have a relationship with one of the detectives that was on my sister's case from 2008 until now, and I love him. He's fantastic because he won't set me up for failure. He tells me the truth, he gives me details, and he will never tell me something that he won't actually do. And I have a fantastic relationship with him. So it just depends. 

Yeah. Wow. I mean, yeah, it's such a. Case by case, for lack of a better word. Situation? Person by person as well. Within that. I just personally am so interested because, you know, my case has never gone all the way through a trial yet. So I do have this sort of hope that if they get someone, it will go all the way through. And that's the person, who did it. And justice, for lack of a better word, whatever that means today will be served. How are you handling and coping with the fact that. There was an acquittal. And this is sort of still the person who you think did it. The police have, you know, told you they think did it. How do you handle that? And and what does that mean moving forward? 

I don't think I have the luxury of handling it in any other way, but picking up the pieces and trying to move on to the next. You know, of course I take my time to grieve and be sad. But that's all I can do is pick up the pieces and move on. And that's really where I'm at. You know, I'm told that other charges can stick if we can find, you know, perhaps my sister's remains. If we can find more evidence, there are other avenues to go down. But I will say that what I think of as justice, how I define justice for myself and for my sister's case has changed to go into a courtroom. And just here lies. You know, my sister was 17 when she went missing and was sexually abused for essentially her entire life. And to hear a lawyer, basically slut shame a child who was sexually abused by her stepfather. And that not be called hearsay. And see things like letters that she wrote herself that allude to this sexual assault, not enter into the courtroom because that's hearsay. Her own words are hearsay. I've lost faith in the justice system, and I don't think a conviction would bring me that great sense of relief anymore. It just is what it is. And maybe I'm just a hippie that way, but I don't need a judge or a jury, to tell me what happened in that house that I grew up in. I believe my sister who told, you know, all her friends, told her friends parents. She told so many people what was going on in that house. All of our brothers knew what was happening. I believe in that. So when a judge says the state didn't bring enough evidence to complete this in my courtroom. That doesn't mean much to me. You know what I mean? Yeah. It hurts. And I hated that. And I wish he was found guilty. And I believe that if it actually went to the jury, he would have been found guilty. But that's just how our justice system works. It's a game of showmanship, and it's a game of technicalities. And whose lawyer can be the best. And in that courtroom, during that trial, my dad got so lucky with his public defenders. He had an amazing team of public defenders, and they fought harder. So they won. And again, it's hard. And I think it has redefined what I think of as justice. 

Yeah, that that brings back. I'm having so many emotions. When I first started my show, a question I got asked all the time because I was very much at the very beginning of this journey was, when will it be enough? Like, when will I feel like I've done enough that I can stop this and sort of move on with my life? And I used to think when I know who did it, when I know inherently, I figured it out. This is what happened. I will feel like that's enough, whether or not there's enough to take it through the court system. Because it is so. Fickle. It's not guaranteed. It's not. Here's the step by step process that happens every single time. That process looks different for every single trial that runs through our court system. I don't know if any two are the same, and that is so frustrating because it does come down to. You can know that someone did something and not have the right type of evidence, or the right type of fingerprints, or the right type of something needed to actually send it through this system. And it can be very frustrating. And I do wonder now I'm a year out from sort of saying, oh, if I just know that will be enough, sort of taking inventory with myself of like, is it what is the right amount of information? I'll have to just know and go to bed at night knowing that I know who did it and will. I feel closure, knowing that they're sort of still out and about, living their lives, doing whatever. And similarly, in our cases, whoever did do this, if they're still alive today and not in prison for something else, has been doing that for the last 22 years. They have been living their life. And will, you know, going to prison for the last ten, 20 years of their life really change anything at this point? I don't know. But it would be nice if the people whose job it is to find that person did it. That would be super awesome. 

That would be ideal, right? That's that's when you grow up. That's what you're told happens, right? Something bad happens. The police come in and they help and they solve the case. I think people don't understand that, this route that you're taking that I've taken is not plan A. Like none of us wanted this to happen, and we thought, oh, this is our ticket to stardom. We're going to go put our whole dirty laundry out on the internet and have the best time. Like, no, this is the hardest, worst process I've ever gone through in my entire life. And that's being done in front of the entire world. Not a single soul, as far as I know. Perhaps there is someone out there, but I have not met them yet. Not a single soul that I know has signed up for this and said, yeah, you know, it would be make a murder in my family. Even better. Let me go, be this internet celebrity of sorts that people just crash on all the time. It's just it's crazy to me. I think ideally, we all wanted the same, you know, we just we wanted the police to solve these cases so we could move on with our lives. 

100 percent. That's perfectly sad. And I always say that I don't want to be doing this. I, I if I didn't have to do this, I would rather do literally anything else. I would rather do anything else than do this. And yeah, it's it's certainly not plan A or B or C. Yeah, it's it's horrible. And it it really puts you through like. It's a very isolating process. Because not a lot of people understand, and that can feel very, I feel like I'm almost like living in this very small bubble, where I'm trying to convey how this feels even to friends, just to have some sort of, like, connection to someone, to just understand, like, this is what I'm going through, and it just doesn't register because you can't know what it's like to do this and put everything out there in this way and deal with, you know, what comes with that? All in an attempt to do someone else's job. It's just such a weird. Exactly. Such a weird thing. And that really brings up sort of the next question I had, which is. You are told as a kid. Really the only two entities you can trust. When you're a child, you're told are your family and the police. If something's wrong, you call your parents or you call 911. And that's like ingrained in you from the moment. You can like process information and to then in your case and also in mine, realize that those two entities are actually the least trustworthy in these scenarios is like just so it's like you have to unlearn everything you've learned your entire life. How have you been processing that? And, I mean, you had to start processing that obviously at a much younger age, but what has that been like? And how even from like a mental standpoint, are you finding trust with other people and new people in your life? 

Oh, gosh, what a what a loaded question. I will say that, you know, my father, is ex law enforcement, so I have this, like, weird crossover of both, right? And I was also raised with a very healthy distrust of police. You know, I was always told police officers are just like any other person. They can do good and they can do bad. They are any other person you meet in this world. Do not trust a police officer just because they wear a badge. And I will give my dad credit for that, because I think that that's a pretty smart way to go about life. Anybody you meet right there, a teacher there, a doctor, there is no automatic profession that makes you a good person. And I will say that with my full chest, I'm not bashing on police. I'm just saying humans are humans and they're going to do what they do. But, you know, yeah, I do have a hard time trusting people. Absolutely. I mean, I can't trust my family if I'm being totally honest because, you know, one, and we grew up in an environment that was extremely manipulative. You know, I these days, I do liken it to a cult. You know, we still are trying to figure out what's reality and what was the reality that was created for us by our father. We were isolated from a lot of our family. So, I guess I grew up without trusting anybody, which is extremely difficult when you get older. I was on my own at 12 when Alyssa was gone. You know, at that point, I was cooking Thanksgiving for my entire family. I was making Christmas happen for the family. I, you know, saw that again when my dad went to prison. And when I was about 19, I just turned 20. And it was like the whole world was pulled out from underneath me and I was on my own. So I absolutely struggle to trust and. What's even crazier is, you know, once I got to that point where they're telling me to get media, I then put trust in the true crime community. I'm like, well, here's all these people that just want to help that or just want to help all these cases and are being amazing. And you think everybody in true crime is in it for the right reasons, and they're just not. So, yeah, I mean, I think my life is very much a cycle of wanting to trust people and then being let down by that, not saying that there's not any amazing people out there, because there certainly are. But when it comes to something like this and it just shatters your reality, you look back and question everything. I'm sure you feel a similar way. You know, you question conversations your family probably had about your father. Was that true? What is true? It really makes you rewrite everything you knew 100%. 

Yeah, I do. I replay conversations all the time and wonder what was really going on that I wasn't fully aware of in the context that I was missing. And even now, you know, I find myself in my regular day to day relationships. Like if I ask someone to do something, I'll ask them like 18 times if they did it. Not out of like a micromanaging perspective, but like, I just don't trust anyone. And until I've seen something done, I don't believe that you're doing it because I just don't trust anyone. And it's, a very weird I it's weird to see things like that manifest in your day to day and sort of be able to pinpoint back, oh, that's where that came from or other. That's where, I developed that, but it is so interesting. So even like in your family to a call and I say that because I grew up in a very interesting religious organization that was also very cult like. And then I ended up joining a sorority, which was also very cult like. And then I worked for Lululemon, which is also very cool, like, and, when I meet people who are in cults formerly, they talk a lot about how it's actually very easy to jump from, like cult situation to cult situation to cult situation, because you're so used to that element of community, which is my least favorite word. And it's like the scariest word maybe in the world is community. If someone is promoting that, it's like, oh, cult immediately, that's a call. And I feel like the true crime podcast world is very similar to that. So I could totally see how you leave this family dynamic. That's very culty. And you jump into this like other group that's like, hi, come welcome. Here we are. We're here for you. And like, we're all buddies and we work together and we help each other and we're a community. And then it's like, okay, cool. Slide right on in. And then it's like, oh, this is not at all what I thought it was. Because it's so easy to do that. And, I even now that I am sort of in this world, I have to be so cognizant of, like, don't get sucked into, like the community element of it. It's, it's a cult. And anything can be a cult. And I talk about that a lot with my friends, too. Literally anything can be a cult. But that is really interesting. To, like, sort of find yourself in that world and. Yeah, it's. It's jarring. Especially. I was. While at the same time I was sort of a victim. I didn't know it because I didn't know my dad was murdered, and I was just a consumer of true crime for a while at this weird crossover point of like, not knowing yet that I was involved in a story and consuming this content. And so I also, as a consumer, assumed that these shows were really set with the premise of helping people, and it was so interesting to then flip so quickly, to be on the other side of it and have this realization that some people that I had idolized for years, I'm now meeting them and interacting with them, and it's such a different world and dynamic. And, that was. A very interesting piece, because those are the people that are getting access to the case files and have built trust with the police and have done all of these things. And I who have now sort of kind of like them, but also still a family member don't have access to. And that was a very frustrating element to deal with in the beginning as well. 

Yeah. I mean, you know, the thing is, the true crime industry is the entertainment industry. And if creators. Who truly understand that and know that and feel that way. If they came out and said that this is all for entertainment, this is my job. People would be, you know, appalled by that and they wouldn't want to listen to their shows. At least, I would say the majority of the audience, there are plenty of people in true crime who are just like, this is entertainment. I don't care, and it is what it is. But I think, you know, now, especially the game, is to really act ethical, to pretend essentially that you care. And I think, you know, in a certain level they probably do care, you know what I mean? Like they like what they do. They're getting the word out about these cases. And there is value in that, but not in the way that they they show it. When you tell a family member, I'm there for you, I care. I want to help your person story. That's a commitment that I don't think a lot of these creators understand that they are taking on. You know what I mean? Like, it goes back to expectations. If you tell me this is just going to be an episode, that's it. And I'll never talk to you again. That's fine. I'm a grown up. I can deal with that. If you try to pretend to be my friend and then you act crappy after that, that's when it gets like, ooh, this doesn't feel good. You know what I mean? Yeah. 

Totally. Exactly. And yeah, it is so interesting. Fielding those dynamics and having to filter through. On your own because people aren't as upfront about that. So you do have to use your own filter to sort of figure out what is what. And that's very difficult. Especially some people are very charismatic, so it's hard to know the difference. And that's something that I took into consideration when making my show. And I'm sure you did too, because yours is, you know, high quality, such a good, well-produced show. I had to think about those things as well. It wasn't enough for me to get on a my phone and say, here's my dad story. I had to write out the script, tweak it, tweak it again, make sure that it left on a cliffhanger, make sure I use good audio, add music, hear sound effects here, mix and master it, put it out and really compete with like the highest level of production quality. Because at the end of the day, even though I'm telling my own story, if it's not entertaining, no one will listen and then no one will know about my story. And dealing with that in my head when making this show was such a mind block of like. Even when I'm writing it. I remember at one point my friend who's my producer, Jeremy, was like, this is too emotional. You can't say this. And I would fight back. And then I'm like, you're right. If I want people to listen, I have to hold back on this part, or I have to make sure that I say it in a way that's not too much. And even dealing with that was such a weird. Moment of like, I have to get people interested, so this has to be entertaining. But this is my life and these are my inner thoughts. And this is my dad and this is my family, and this is my mom and my childhood trauma all wrapped into now I have to write a good script. It was so. It was so crazy. And still every time. I write a new script, I'm like, I struggle very much. I mean, there's probably 4 or 5 drafts each of an episode because the very first one is almost like, this is my dear diary, like, this is how I'm feeling today. And then it becomes eventually what it is. But the fact that I have to filter through that is. Not cool and not fun. But you have to sort of compete with the people who are so disassociated from the stories because they have no connection, that they're able to write a really compelling script and leave it with this cool, you know, question at the end that leaves you wanting more. And, it's it's wild. 

It is. Well, like you said, I think calling it a mind fuck is perfect because that's exactly what it is. Because I think, you know, especially me. Maybe I grew up in the era of like 90s sitcoms where like, right is right and wrong is wrong and everything's, you know, solved by the end of the day. So in my mind, you know, I still think someone like your dad getting murdered, that should be enough to just compel people to want to help, right? Oh, my gosh, this terrible thing happened. There's a murderer on the loose, black and white. End of story. People should help. People should care. But that's not how it is. And to your point, you do have to add this element of entertainment to kind of hook people in. And I, I get it right because I made my first season of voices for justice about my sister in 2019, where podcasting was even more of the Wild West. And, I knew I was going to be attacked. So what I did was like, I was like, I'm going to do mostly court documents, mostly just the case file, like remove myself from it as much as possible, because it's not about me. And I don't want people, to think that this is led with emotion, because that'll give them a bad taste in their mouth. Especially back then, it was so different. It was insane. Leading with emotion as a family member was like the sin, the cardinal sin and true crime. They didn't want to hear from it. You're over emotional. You know. You're too close to it. You can't see it for what it is. So I basically was like, here's all these court documents and interviews with people. Not much of my opinion in here. Please help. What do you see? And I really laid it out, almost hoping people would say something different, that it wasn't my dad, but that certainly wasn't the case. I think less than 1% think something different in my sister's case. But now I'm going back and redoing her season. And it's a totally different ballgame. And I feel what you feel because I am trying to insert myself in there more. And it's it's hard. It's it's a game of theatrics where it feels like it shouldn't be. But at the same time, it's like this necessary evil you have to do to get people to care. 

Yeah. And that's sort of going back to like the this isn't plan A element of it. I feel like if I'm going to say and mean it, that I will do whatever it takes, then I will do whatever it takes. And if that means I have to, you know, tweak a script to get you really interested in this so that everything you're looking up on Reddit and reading and tick talking about is my dad's case. I will bite the bullet and I will do that. I just wish that I didn't have to. And that's the the weird piece of this that. It's just so interesting. And. Yeah. I mean, we're we're dealing with. Grieving this. Very weird. Loss that not everyone, everyone experiences someone in their life dying. Not everyone experiences it in this way, which I think adds this level of you can empathize, but you can't also because you just don't understand. And it is so weird to grieve that loss while also. Taking it on in such. A. Hands on way. And it's really taxing. And it becomes, you know, it's a full time job. It's it's all day. It's we are thinking about all the time. And, I think that doesn't help maybe the grieving process, but in a way, maybe down the line it does because you, you find closure in whatever way that looks for you. What do you hope or I guess, what's an ideal outcome for you? Because in my situation, it's similar. You're reliant on these entities. You you need the police in order to, you know, get access to information or take this case back to court or potentially go and find the remains that you're looking for. What's your goal or your hope for the future of your relationship with them moving forward? Because it's okay to be critical, of course, but they're probably having feelings about that. But knowing that you need them, it's it's a weird dynamic to deal with. And what do you hope for that relationship moving forward? 

Yeah, I mean, it's an odd dichotomy because I have one detective who is like, I can't wait to see your sister's story on, like, Netflix someday. And I have another that, like, won't talk to me anymore. So it's very, very strange. But to your point, I do need the police. I'm at a point where, essentially, we need to find my sister's remains, and I can do that without police. It will not make a courtroom without them there. That's what I've been told repeatedly, is I can go out. Anybody can go out and look for any remains they want right now. I'm not saying do that, but, essentially, if I cannot have a police officer, they're a member of law enforcement to observe the process, to document the process. And I find something, whatever I find is very unlikely to be able to be used in court without them there. But they refused to, you know, they went on ABC 2020 and said, we'd love to go look in Desert Center, California, for your sister's remains. And I said, let's go. I have a million people on TikTok. I can get them to help. Like I can raise the money. Whatever you need, I will create those resources for you. I just need your help. And they said no. Every, every place that they want to look. They keep saying, no, it's too hard. There's not enough resources. I can't bring in my own resources if I do my own search. They've refused to send an officer to just watch. So I'm stuck. I can find my sister's remains, which, again, I'm. I'm a hippie, so I feel like her remains aren't going to bring me that much closure, to be totally honest. You know what I mean? What's left of her. So I don't know. Oh, I'm in this really hard spot of. Do I wait for the police forever? Do I go out and do it myself? So, yeah, that's really where I'm at right now, is just trying to get them to help, but also kind of knowing that that's probably not going to happen. 

Yeah. Wow. Oh my gosh. It's like. I was just telling someone your story and you. It's the most heartbreaking yet inspiring story. Because of just how. You are able to continue moving forward with your life and be so resilient in in this. It's, especially for someone like myself who is newer to the the world of publicly doing this. It is just like, very inspiring. I'm going to cry. I, I really appreciate your perspective. And just like how open you are about this, because. Yeah, I mean, as we've said, it's. Brutal, to do that. But it is very, very helpful for people like myself and, I think for the industry in general to show what it looks like to. Be connected to a victim, but also share your story and make something that people listen to and want to watch. In a way that is as ethical as possible. And I think, yeah, it should be an industry standard. To do it the way that you're doing it. So. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Do you have anything else you want to add? I know we've, like, covered, literally, like, all over the place, but. 

I mean, I could talk about it all day. I do want to say, you know, because I think a lot of people see people like us and they think, well, if it causes so much pain, don't do it. Right. And so I think talking about the alternative is important. And I think for some people, the alternative does bring them more peace. They can walk away and say, I tried what I, what I could and now I'm at peace with that. But I think for people like me and I, I'm assuming because of what you're doing, people like you doing, the alternative hurts more. I especially before my dad was arrested, I couldn't watch Netflix for an hour without feeling guilty, without feeling like I should be doing something for my sister. And for me, it became this active form of grieving. I don't know where my sister's at. I don't know exactly what happened, but helping her feels better than being sad about it. So I guess just for anybody out there who might have been wondering why we put ourselves through this, for me, and I think for a lot of families, that's why. 

Yeah, totally. That is like, yeah, spot on. Especially the career field that I'm in. You know, I'm making television shows and films about other people stories. And a lot of them are, you know, in the unscripted space. So it's people telling their real story. It's not like a something that's made up. And every time I'm making something, I'm like, I should be showcasing this story. And this is like my story and my dad's story and who he was. And I think there's also unique elements in our stories where they're sort of. Weird. Things that don't get talked about a lot. Obviously my dad was a black drug dealer there. Sexual assault. In your story, there's elements that people don't really like to promote in commercialized docs. And, you know, it really ruins the element of like, this perfect story of like, you know, amazing father, family man gets murdered and like, perfect daughter with loving parents gets killed. It's like it ruins that for them. And so to be able to share those stories as well and say, but these are still loved humans who were very dynamic and had a lot of different elements in their life. For me, that responsibility was very heavily on my conscience as well. But even if it wasn't just my dad's story, I want to start telling more of these stories because that is really important. Especially if the industry of true crime is going to continue on whether or not I like it and whether or not I think it's ethical, can I do something that positively impacts it in some way, and that is humanizing victims that don't necessarily fit the mold? And showing bigger companies and networks that people do care about these stories. And you should invest in these stories. For me, that's just such an important piece of this. And, I don't know what I'm going to do after this, but that is something that weighs really heavily on me and why my dad's story was so important because it was so dynamic in that way. You know, he wouldn't have ever been talked about on another podcast, because of who he was and what he did. And that is just the brutal reality of it. So. 

Absolutely. Any podcast, any podcaster I should say, that looks at their analytics can tell you, you know, the at least that that covers multiple cases. I can tell you right now, I could go into my analytics and pull it up. Right. These picture perfect victims, if you will. They get more downloads than someone who doesn't look so perfect, somebody who's not white. Absolutely. I see that every single day in my analytics, and people can say what they want. You can't fight that data. You can't fight that data. People just don't care as much. I just published an episode about a young woman who, came from Mexico to continue her education here in the US and was killed three weeks after she got here. And the analytics are just bad. The engagement on social media is just bad people. Just if if they can't resonate with the victim somehow with the person being talked about, it's like they don't care and how we bridge that gap. I still don't know, to be totally honest with you, but, I think shouting about it and just talking about it and being extremely upfront and blunt about it is a helpful conversation. And I think all these conversations just have to continue in true crime, until we can see some type of difference. It shouldn't take you crying about your dad. And not to use the word crying like you're complaining or something, but it shouldn't take you having to tell your dad's story for people to connect with you and to care. Again, it goes back to that black and white murdered murderer is still out there. We need to get him one. I wish. I wish it could be that simple. 

Yeah. Yeah I agree. Oh my gosh. Well. Thank you so much. This was like, beyond what I was even expecting. Which, of course, when you talk with someone like yourself and and we get together, it's such a different conversation than with anyone else. 

So I love what you're doing. And again, I'm trying, I promise. I'm not trying to keep you forever, but, you know, like, it's so crazy to me what happens in true crime. Because if you look at just traditional media in general, right? Britney Spears is book. If you look back to the book that, Princess Diana did with that writer. Right. People want to hear right from the source. They want to hear from Britney. They want to hear from Diana. They want to hear from the kids that were abused on Nickelodeon. So why in true crime, is it so weird that we're out here telling the stories of our loved ones? Like, please, I can. I can't think of another genre that operates that way. It's as if true crime is like the least welcoming to the people who are firsthand involved in these stories. 

That is such a good point. I've never even thought about that, and I. I watch those docs and I consume that content because it's true. And I guess maybe because of my personal connection to a story, those just always resonated more with me. I like those better. It felt better to watch. So yeah, I it is so interesting that we'd rather hear from a comedian than the actual person telling their story. Yeah, that's it's wild. But as you said, I mean, podcasting in and of itself still sort of feels like the Wild West and true crime feels like. The Wild West of the Wild West, where it's just like anything goes. And. And for better or for worse. And maybe that's enabling us now to sort of do what we want and what we can, because there really are no rules. But it also creates, you know, a lot of gray area out there for people to run with things in ways that don't feel as comfortable and ethical. But here we are. 

Yes. I mean, you know, freedom of speech is a two way road, right? They can say what they want, and I can say what I want, and I have to respect that. It goes both ways. 

Totally. That's very true. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. This was helpful, even for me. But hopefully for everyone listening to sort of understand the interesting dynamics between not only. Families and the police, but just sort of this community in general and like what we are doing and, and the difficulties that it's presenting, very much an uphill battle. But we are here and we're chugging along and, yeah, I, I just really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me. 

Oh, I appreciate you. We need more families like you in true crime. Seriously, I love to see it. I'm always here to support you. And I always say this to the families I work with. It's like, I love you. And I wish I never met you. And I wish we were never in these circumstances. You know, I, I feel like that's that's where it's at into crime. But thank you for what you do. 

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to Ice Cold Case, your support means the world as I am going through this investigation in real time to answer: Who Killed My Dad? We’ll be back next time to continue the journey. In the meantime, please follow and share Ice Cold Case and if you have any information you can email it to icecoldcasepodcast@gmail.com. 

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