Truer Crime with Celisia Stanton

Welcome back to another bonus episode of Ice Cold Case. I am very excited about this guest who not only is a brilliant storyteller, but also someone I admire and am lucky enough to call my friend. True crime is weird. As a genre, as a culture, as a form of storytelling. But Celesia Stanton has used her unique voice and perspective to shift how true crime stories are told. In her podcast, Truer Crime, she highlights a wide range of cases from notorious headlines to cases that don't have a lot of media coverage. She gives insight to what inspires one to make a true crime podcast and her journey to season two. And now, here's my conversation about Truer Crime with Celesia Stanton.

Yeah, well, thanks for doing this. I'm really excited to talk with you just about I, I kind of want to talk about your story a little bit and then sort of the evolution of your show and sort of where we are now and and your thoughts on the context of the world and your show and and all of those things so let's just start from the beginning like who are you where are you from all of those things yeah yeah I'm Celisia Stanton, I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota um very I have a lot of Twin Cities pride um and I host the podcast and I'm also the creator of the podcast Truer Crime, I also as a host on the podcast The Vanishing Point both out of Tenderfoot TV um and Truer Crime just released its second season

this past Monday with two episodes diving into sort of the untold story of the Martin Luther King assassination as well as the Lauren Muskie case which is the young woman who was um sadly killed by an ex-boyfriend after repeated repeated um contacts to police who did nothing to help her um so it's an episodic true crime show every every episode is a new case and um really runs the gamut from you know wrongful convictions to to more like historical cases to your typical sort of true crime story I love it and so you have a personal story um within true crime um that's you were a victim of a case so can you tell me a little bit about sort of what prompted this i guess epiphany of the mix of like real life with these stories yeah yeah so for me i was a wedding and i still am i have a wedding and portrait photography and i'm a portrait photographer

business that i've run um for several years um and basically since i got out of college and so that's what i was doing i wasn't at all in the media world or podcasting world um and i you know in 2020 obviously not a lot of events going on so there wasn't you know a lot of my weddings got moved i had A lot more free time, my hands, and then being from Minneapolis after George Floyd was killed, this is like a you know, obviously a really catalyzing event for the world but especially in my community and that was something that was kind of involved with and in terms of like the activism and um

and the uprising that was happening locally um and so I started posting on Instagram just kind of racial and social justice content that um education stuff that kind of resonated with people, I had a few of those posts go viral and kind of was able to grow a uh following on Instagram um and so I that was the first time that I was like okay, I feel Like people are interested in my perspective, um, my lived experience as a black woman living in the middle of the world and I was like okay, I'm going to live in the Midwest having gay parents, you know, um, I have this debate background, I did debate in

high school, I coached debate for 15 years, um, so I love to think about things critically and engage, you know, get into the nuances of stuff, so um, that all informs my perspective and that was the first time I felt like okay, wow, like maybe there is an audience of folks who would be interested in hearing, you know, what I have to share but I didn't ever love social media it's a very obvious Black and white medium, um, and does not have much nuance. I was like, 'so' I felt like something longer form would be probably a better fit for me, but at that point in the early summer of 2020, I wasn't sure exactly what that was going to look like. Simultaneously, I was working with this financial advisor, um, who was really just kind of...

I needed I really wanted someone to help me like plan for a retirement and saving for big goals, like buying a house down the line, and all that stuff. Being a self-employed person, I didn't know what to do, so I was like, 'Please, somebody, come in and tell me what to do.' Um, and so I had met this guy who was um, really Great, he was really kind of well-known in the local community um this was a black man which kind of was interesting to me because you don't see a lot of black folks in the financial sector so I felt like that was resonant and then it was great because when we talked he was like 'You know part of my mission, really.

And in my work is giving people who traditionally are excluded from the financial system giving them access to that system um whether that be black folks you know uh women small business owners. So I really resonated with that and I was really excited to get to work together so and he was like a very hands-on kind of Person, like we would meet, like I think bi-weekly, we were meeting um, and he was really helping me kind of make all these investments um, of my savings, and then you know just kind of also planning for like the general life stuff about um, you know how should I be thinking about money and finances so it was great until I found out a few months later that he was actually defrauding all of his investor clients.

So he stole over two million dollars from all of his clients and he was using it for things like going on cruises and buying fancy cars and just really crazy, and this was a guy who was like you know supposedly a family man. He had multiple Kid, you know kids young kids, and he was married, you know he just seemed like this sort of all-American guy so um, and he was a financial planner, like it was true, it wasn't um, it wasn't something that he was like pretending he had the right educational background; he was a fiduciary, meaning that he had like extra financial obligations to like do what's best for his clients um,

and legal obligations which of course were all violated um, so I got a text in uh late this late uh 2020 where he was basically like hi, I've turned myself into the FBI um, and you know you can defer to my email if you have any questions um, and that was crazy So, the FBI had been investigating him for a series of months. Um, and I actually i had only worked with him from like August of 2020 through till when this all kind of like unraveled. So, he was actually under investigation either all of that time or a good amount of it. So, it's kind of sad to know that like they knew but I didn't know, and therefore I was still investing money with him.

So, he had stolen all of the life savings I had had to that point which was tens of thousands of dollars, and you know I'm lucky I think as a young person um, you know just the amount of money that I had invested with him and just also where I'm at my life and where Hopefully, my career is going um that you know this is like was a really devastating barrier but for some of the the people that he targeted he stole their entire retirement you know hundreds of thousands of dollars so in the aftermath of this I was pretty depressed obviously and I was just literally every day I was getting up I was doing cat puzzles and listening to true crime podcasts I was like, 'This is how we're getting through this' um and so I was constantly pausing the shows and complaining to my husband about like things that I just felt like were missing from the narrative you know I felt like these stories were very

Like, you know, like they were, like, talking about race or gender or sexuality or you know what are the root causes of crime how do we actually prevent it you know all these deeper critical questions and those were questions I had I was like please like why won't somebody talk about this and so basically I complained to him enough that he was like why don't you start your own podcast and I was like oh that's a good idea I should do that so that's how Truer Crime came to be but you know in a lot of ways, like, to say like this event being the victim of this financial crime was, of course, a catalyzing event, but it wasn't really a critical Event and I think that's kind of like just like the full cause, right?

It was more like the straw that broke the camel's back than it was, you know, like just immediately causal. So it's like everything I was telling you before about this work that I was doing on Instagram and, you know, my personal background and lived experience, that was all really informing the type of perspective that I wanted to hear in the true crime genre. Yeah, I love that. I think it's so interesting and important to know sort of the why behind these shows, because stories like yours and shows like yours fill such a gap in the genre and in the industry in general, and they can get a lot of backing sort of in the beginning as like, look, this is so interesting and different and unique, but then not sort of knowing the back context, it can feel like you get a lot of support for like a moment and then people sort of turn their attention to something else.

But when you really understand, like this wasn't just a moment in time that you had where you were sitting down going, I should start a podcast. This was a life-like lived experience where like there was something missing that wasn't being told, I think is so important and really informs you know how your show is and how it was created and what it sounds like and the stories that you tell which I think is so great. You do a good job of balancing the types of stories that you tell. So I would love to know more insight into sort of how you choose these stories and are these stories that people send to you? Are these stories that you have a curiosity about and like how you kind of choose your slate of cases for your seasons?

Yeah, I think in terms of how I get them it's a mix right? Sometimes people are suggesting them to me or sometimes I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I will have heard about it myself or sometimes I'll be like, I want to talk about a specific issue or theme and I'm kind of looking for a case that represents that. So all different types of ways. But in terms of like what types of stories are a good fit for the show, you know, to me, it was always really important that this be seen as a true crime podcast, not as a social justice podcast or a history podcast or that true crime podcast that's hosted by a black woman, like a true crime podcast, you know.

I want it to be fun. I want it to be fun. I want it to be firmly in the genre. And I feel like to be firmly in the genre of episodic true crime, we have to cover all different types of stories. And so, but kind of bringing my perspective into it, there was a couple of things that I wanted to do that I thought were a little bit more unique, which is one trying to cover sometimes cases that are maybe considered historical or normally you would just see them in a history context. So think the MLK episode that we just released on Monday or a season one, we released an episode on the Tulsa race massacre.

And these are stories that like, you know, typically it's like, either you're going to be a history buff, or you're going to be a true crime girlie, right? And you're really not getting a lot of crossover between those two demographics of people. But I was like, what if you could create a show, an episode that told a story of with historical significance, but in that true crime, storytelling vehicle, that could be something really interesting and magical. And I think that's what I was going for. So I also feel like with a lot of these stories, that are like kind of relegated to history, there's so much intrigue and thing and like questions and stuff that people don't know that people would be interested in.

So for example, with the MLK episode, it's like, if you I asked a lot of people kind of in the research process for that for that episode, like, what do you know about Martin Luther King's assassination? And most people were like, I know, basically nothing, or there'd be like, little things here and there, like, Oh, wasn't he killed, you know, in on a balcony? Or something? Yes, he was killed on a balcony at a motel in Tennessee, by a man named James Earl Ray, or so that's what James Earl Ray said. And then he was convicted of that crime, and sent to life in prison. Turns out, though, that James Earl Ray has basically insisted that he's innocent. After that, after the fact, and Martin Luther King's family doesn't think he's guilty either.

And in 1999, they, Coretta Scott King, and the other people who were convicted of that crime, were charged with a civil suit against the US government and a bunch of other entities basically saying that you were the ones who killed King. And they won that civil trial. And that's something that most people don't know. And they don't know the evidence of why they believe that to be true, and why that jury decided the case in that way. And so those sorts of things are the things I thought would be really interesting in a true crime context. But then, of course, I also like to cover sort of like infamous true crime cases. You can think of one of the episodes we're going to do actually this season is a two-part episode on the Manson case, which is a two-part episode on the Manson case.

And I'm going to be talking about a lot of the stuff that's going to be in the show as well, and I'm also going to be talking about the stuff that's going to be in the show as well, and I'm also going to be talking about the stuff that's family murders. That's a story that a lot of people might know that, or maybe what you know is like, oh yeah, like maybe that was like a group of crazy hippies, right? That went on some kind of killing spree. But most people don't really aren't aware of the fact that Charles Manson was trying to incite a race war that the that he actually tried to pin multiple of his crimes on the Black Panthers.

So I think just kind of trying to tell infamous cases from a new perspective, highlighting details you probably haven't heard. We did an episode on Jonestown in season one. You know, most people have heard like, don't drink the Kool-Aid, right? You've kind of, or you know that this was maybe a mass suicide event, like with a, with a cult, right? But a lot of people don't know that the majority of the folks who died in Jonestown were Black folks, primarily Black women. And that Jim Jones, the cult leader, was forwarding sort of a vision of racial and class equity. And that a lot of people felt like this group was actually a social justice organization. And a lot of things Jim Jones said, if you listen to his tapes, are really compelling.

I'm like, he kind of said, sounds a little like Bernie Sanders sometimes. So for me, I felt like there's these stories, there's like so many interesting details to these stories that people think they know, and that, that, you know, that perspective needs to be heard. And then, of course, we're, we're covering lots of, of, of cases that are maybe more typical true crime. And I'm just kind of adding things, how I see it from my perspective, and then cases that really balance the these questions of like culpability. I think true crime tends to fall into this idea of a really simple narrative of there's this innocent victim and this evil perpetrator. And it's like most of actual crime is more nuanced and complicated than that.

Next week, or on this Monday, this coming Monday, which this might be out actually at the time that this episode is released, but it'll be covering the story of Alice Sebold, who is a sort of like famous author who wrote the book, The Lovely Bones, which is adapted into a movie that I really liked as a teen. And it's a story about her actual, she was actually raped when she was when she was in college. And the man who raped her was sent to trial and convicted of the crime. His name is Anthony Broadwater, except for turns out he didn't actually attack her. She wrongly identified him, which is a very common phenomenon, especially cross-racially. So that's a that's the incident, or that's a case where the questions of culpability are really big.

It's like, who's the victim here? Who's the perpetrator? It's complicated. And it's hard, because, you know, Alice is definitely a victim, what happened to her was terrible. And also, she made this mistake that really ruined somebody's life, right? So Anthony is also a victim. So all different kinds of cases, we have some wrongful convictions that are really important. We're covering as well. But hopefully, that kind of answers it. Yeah, no, it's perfect. I think that's it's so interesting. Because yeah, there is, there's so many true crime podcasts, right? And, and it's funny that you almost hear very, very similar cases in each of them. And they're not really adding anything new. It's just sort of the person telling the story has so much personality that like, you could listen to five different versions of the story with different hosts.

And you're like, Oh, I guess it's different, but it's really not. And you are adding a layer of research that goes beyond sort of what just pops up on the first page of Google, which I think is so important and very interesting. But also, again, yeah, ties in sort of the intersectionality of these cases. These aren't just like black and white issues of like, crime, murder, financial fraud, sexual assault, whatever it is, it's so much more nuanced than that. There's race involved, there's equity involved, there's just so much else going on. And I think that's really an interesting angle to take in a true crime podcast. And even though it's not necessarily a social justice show, you as a person who's so passionate about those issues, you're going to have to actually be engaged in some of the things. And so the panel with years into the show and the first episode comes out in the show. And I think that's really special and very cool. So tell me about this new season, and, Y'all know that right now, though. Yeah.

Um, and her show itself, it's something about catfishing. So does she eat catfish? Today, I'm curious your thoughts on that and, like, sort of what it would you do like a follow-up on this um and also like kind of what we can expect for for the rest of the season yeah um I think definitely you know releasing that episode on MLK Day was an idea from someone on our team at Tenderfoot and I'm really glad that they had suggested it. Tenderfoot did another um series called MLK Tapes that really dives into everything that you know I didn't get to cover in that single episode um and one of the things that I I'd seen that um you know Trump had announced that, that he was going to at the time I first saw it, it was like he said he was going to you I know, mandate the release of these, um, these files on the assassination, and so something.

I started to think about like you know what you know what could be in them and what would we want to talk about, and I definitely think that you know once those files are released, I'd love to do some kind of like follow-up or bonus to to really see does this add more to this to the story that we're already starting to tell. I think there are a lot of unanswered questions that I had at the end of um, writing that episode for Truer Crime, and so I definitely think you know hopefully we can kind of circle back and close the loop on some of those things. Because I think you know, and definitely folks should go listen to the episode; but there's just so many potential suspects involved in this, and you know, with a conspiracy, we're talking about a group of people who are working in coordination together um to ensure that MLK was assassinated;

um and I also think that it's likely that we might find other things, other pieces of interesting information that aren't necessarily directly tied to his murder itself. For example, in the episode we talk a lot about um how COINTELPRO, which is uh um you know a covert sort of like dirty tricks operation that was um kicked off by the FBI. To sort of infiltrate activist groups had targeted King and liked how they were literally like wiring his hotel rooms and stuff, like he would check into a hotel room and then they would like get the information and then they would like the hotel room next door, and like that's wild to me. And a lot of that information has come out through some of the release of some of these um pieces of evidence that have come out in the past, so I'm curious if there's going to be anything more like that in there as well.

But it also looks like the the files around JFK's assassination I think one other I don't know if you remember um. Are going to be coming out as well, so that'll be interesting too, yeah. I do, I know for sure it's JFK and MLK, but I, yeah, I'm not sure, um. It'll and it'll be interesting if in my opinion these are all weirdly interconnected, and so it's like, is there another thing that this sparks where people are like oh, this is briefly mentioned in these files, but we don't have the file for that thing, and does this spark a release of a bunch of different things because so much context will be missing or tied to something else that seems really sketchy, and is this going to be sort of a domino effect of uh, sort of uncovering the government's involvement.

In many things, not just these two, I will add though I don't know there could be interesting things in those files and I'm certainly feel that they need to be released and that you know especially for the family's sake um but I also wonder how much is actually going to be actually in there or that was like kept or retained only because you know with this episode on on MLK that I did I really kind of one of the things I thought about a lot was like what does it mean if a government, who is like being accused of being implicated in in this assassination, is also the one investigating themselves like yeah they're gonna be like we had.

Nothing to do with it, so it's like if they did have something to do with it are they really writing it down and then saving it like maybe but like I don't know so it does make you wonder like is it going to be the full story because you also have to imagine like Trump has got to have like, know what's in those files I assume he's been able to see them I actually don't know I'm not educated on this issue but I assume he would have this information and he would have this security clearances to be able to view those before he made the decision to release them so I don't know who knows what his grander plan or strategy might or might not be But it does make you wonder, like okay, maybe he feels like there's not anything that's sensational in there, but I guess we'll see for ourselves, yeah, it is very interesting.

And also, you know, I've been going through my dad's keys file and it's to your point when the writing in a case file is very much from the perspective of the person writing it, so if they don't assume responsibility or they think something, their bias really comes out in in the reporting in the case file. And so, yeah, it will be very interesting to see um you know the way that my dad's spoken about in his case file is very, it's very clear, sort of what they thought of. Him, they don't see him as like you know it's not a John Doe, we don't know what this person looks like, and we're just writing the facts about this case, it's very much like, 'Drug dealer black man, etc.

So, it'll be interesting to see, sort of, how they wrote everything as it was happening from their perspective, especially if they're not assuming responsibility. Um, so it'll be really interesting just to see kind of what what's going on, um, but yeah, and you know I there's a level for me of just like mistrust where if someone's doing something that seems quote-unquote seemingly good, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, it's like, is there an ulterior motive here? Um, you know what's the purpose of this? Why now? Um, but we'll see. I had read that he said that he was going to release them the first time maybe this is inaccurate but I

thought I read that in an article but then chose not to so yeah you gotta Matt you gotta believe that there's there's some plan here I don't know what it would be but yeah, yeah, there's definitely a tactic it feels like nothing is um accidental like everything is strategic and all that stuff so I don't know what it would be but yeah I don't know what it so it just feel like kind of what is the what is the point of all of this and I hope that we As a society, don't get caught in sorts of the game of it. I think you know this TikTok ban has been very interesting, not to get totally off topic but um just watching how easily everyone sort of fell into the hands of it all and and the sensationalism of it and and everything that went down.

Um, I'm very cautious now to sort of give a lot of the things weight because now I'm like, are we just the pawns in this? Are we just doing the dirty work of everyone else, um, by getting excited about something or or whatever so um yeah, it'll be really interesting to see how it all transpires and when it will even come out. You know, you sign. Something today do we get it? You know, in a month, do we get it in three years? Like what's the timeline for this and, um, yeah. It'll be really interesting to see, but, um, you have other cases obviously that you're covering this season, um, and I think it's really interesting to see how, um, any other highlights, any other cases you're really excited to share, yeah, yeah.

So, I know, I shared about a few of them-the MLK episode, and, um, the Manson like two-part series we're going to be doing, um, there's another case I'm really I'm excited for folks to hear that's coming out in February about a man named DeForest Johnson who is on death row right now, um. for a crime that he says that he didn't commit and I don't believe that he committed it either which is a big thing to say because I've covered some wrongful convictions in the past and like I think um even though you know I think I have some personal leanings in those cases I think this is a case where I feel very

confident that he wasn't he did not do what he's being accused of um the case also like against him that alleged by prosecutors is so egregious um but just to give people a little kind of sneak peek of what to expect and you definitely look look up to Forrest Johnson because he hit you know he's a great guy and he's a great Guy, and he's a great guy, and he's his stakes are very high, life and death stakes, so I'm not trying to gatekeep his story um, but basically kind of, he was accused of killing this uh sheriff who was um working the night shift at this hotel um, behind the hotel, he was accused of killing him behind the hotel um, but there's no physical evidence in the case at all um, and in fact, all of uh, you know, the police's pursuit of DeForest as a suspect came out of the uh

So statements of one individual, a teenage girl, who um changed her story many many times, and that's a really interesting that part's really interesting, and I go into an episode. Um, and uh was under quite a lot of pressure, so, and there's a lot of other crazy things just in you know the case that they, they alleged against him and how the trial went down and all of that, so I think that folks will find that case interesting but also just I think it's just shocking what's allowable. I think you if you're not necessarily consuming either consuming a ton of true crime or maybe you just um are you know don't have any connection to anyone who's kind of been through the criminal legal process, you don't might not be aware that it's like the things that are allowable are actually obscene, and so it's just shocking.

it feels like it shouldn't be the case that you could convict someone um and and sentence them to the death penalty based in no physical evidence at all and statements of one person whose story has changed a ton of times but in fact it happens and quite a lot like it's actually wild how many people are on death row who say that they are innocent and you know are represented by the innocence project or other sort of like similar organizations um and you know I think in January what was it like a bunch of people were all slated to be to be killed in one week and um on the on death row um I think maybe it was like the single greatest week Of executions that we had had in a long time, um, and it, it's just, it's so wild, the, the details of each of these cases are so unique, um, and often very compelling.

But, that's a case I'm really excited about, um, and then there's another case too, I, I'm, I'm excited about, that's coming out towards the end of this season, um, that is about Timothy Coggins who, um, was his murder was unsolved for 30 plus years and it was just solved in the last few years. I mean, I think just the reason that it took 30 years to solve it is really interesting because all that evidence was there all along, um, it just basically wasn't pursued and uh, I think there's a lot. That people can take away from his case, and especially in the in the context the social context we're living in now, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned there, so I'm excited about that.

But just in general, I'm really looking forward to people for people's reactions to the whole series. Um, alongside the MLK episode, I also released that episode on Lauren McCluskey that I mentioned at the beginning, which is a very different episode than than the MLK episode, because this is a you know a modern case of a young girl um from Utah who was um who was a young girl who was a young girl who was a young girl like I said killed by an ex.-Boyfriend, um, after she had done literally everything right and reported, uh, reported, uh, his behavior over and over and over and over again was essentially ignored, and what I found really interesting about her story is that this is a young, beautiful white woman in college in Utah, the this is the person that these systems are set up to protect, like, and yet they failed her, um, and I think that that just proves that there's so much

that needs to be done and amended, um, but yeah, yeah, that's just a few highlights, I love that, yeah, no, I'm very excited, um, and I feel like every week it's just gonna get better and better and episodes come. Out every Monday, yep, so those two on the 20th and then every Monday after that for the next few months. Amazing, and how many episodes are we getting? So there'll be there'll be 10 episodes over the course of the season, um, so we have eight more to go and then a few bonuses here just to go with each of these episodes amazing, that's so exciting. Um, what is your process like to do that? I know you have sort of a team of people, but you have to do obviously so much research and a lot of work goes into this and I know you've been working on this season for a while um, so tell me a little bit about kind of like, I love obviously the the making of the thing.

So, tell me a little bit about like how you once you decide on it, how do you a story kind of then what yeah yeah so you know I really had to figure out a more streamlined process for season two because season one was completely independent and and that was just me trying to figure out how do you even make a podcast um so really season two was about how can we make this in a little bit more of an efficient way and so for me it's like once we've selected an episode the first thing I'm doing is kind of going and and and researching the sort of broad strokes right I'm going to like go to some primary sources and try to get

a good idea of what This case is and then at that point, I'm, I am, I am story arcing it so I'm like, what is the most compelling way to tell this story to a to a true crime audience, and then from there, I am taking my outline and going and researching based on that arc right because I think at first, I was in a situation where I was just like, especially in episodic series, it's like you're not using so much of the research you you could do um, there's you could you know you could do research for for forever um, and so this kind of helped me narrow in on like, okay what's what are what are the things that we need to dive deeper into that are going to be really important.

to how I plan to tell this story um and then it's the writing process which is like you know that quote about like it's you know being having written is like way better than having to actually write something um and so that part's hard but it's always great when it's when we can get through that because true crime is completely different than it's um you know and a single episode is like 40 minutes of straight talking 40 minutes to an hour so I'm like I've written a novel basically of between all these episodes um so yeah we we get through that and then at that point it's just you know working with the team to kind of make sure That it sounds the best, finding the best music and scoring and and all of that to bring it to life, and that was something that was more exciting for Season two was having the opportunity to really like make it sonically like match how

I you know what it was in Season one which is really just me, you know, reading and we had to do that so I think that's really important. A little bit of a little bit of music that played at certain moments of tension, that was always the same music, and I always felt like, you know, good music and sound design can really help emphasize those moments, um, you know, of intensity so yeah 100% no it's so it's so cool I think to watch independent shows sort of grow and and elevate as the seasons, you know, progress and and adding in just those little things I think is is so exciting and so fun and

it sounds incredible, um, so definitely want people to listen just because it's from start to finish, from the research to the sound design to the quality of the show it's just so good all the way through but yeah you're making like little documentaries, I mean really it's like so much you're doing so much work for for each case and each story in each episode so it's really incredible, um, yeah, of course is there anything else you want to share? With us about the show, um, obviously people who like my show are very interested in, in the lesser known cases. I would assume, um, or they just like to hear me talk, which is insane, so that's probably not the case.

Um, but is there anything, is there anything you want to share for people who maybe are interested in those types of stories that, um, that you want them to know about your show? Yeah, I can guarantee that we'll be doing in this season that people will have never heard of, like cases people will never heard of, um, and so I think you know the majority of them, people will have never heard of. And so I I definitely think if that's something you're interested in definitely Truer Crime is a show that you will enjoy, um, you know. And I think that really, just there's something for everybody so if you know, just try out the one that sort of appeals to you most based off the description. We put a lot of time into writing those descriptions so browse through and see.

And then also, you know, you could check out season one as well. We have I think it's what, 13 episodes now that are in that season. So um, find that, see if there's something that appeals to you and then see if you want to listen to more. But um, if you do listen and you like it, the biggest thing is really just to help with. By you know, rating and reviewing and sharing with friends, I always feel like, you know, everyone has that show on Netflix or whatever that they loved, and then they're like, 'okay, great, I just I'm done with the first season, I can't wait until there's more and then there's no more, you know. It's done, it's canceled.

Um, and so, you know, that's the biggest thing that you can do to help a show is to actually like, listen and engage with it. Um, so I definitely hope that your listeners will will check it out, and I really appreciate you having me on. Yeah, of course, thank you so much for taking the time, um, I really appreciate it, and I love your show. And I know that everyone who listens will too thank you so much for listening to this bonus episode of Ice Cold Case. You can find Truer Crime wherever you get your podcasts, and I'll see you back here very soon for part three of Ice Cold Case.