Steven Keogh (Live From CrimeCon London 2024)

Welcome to a bonus episode of Ice Cold Case. Regular programming will resume soon, but I am currently out investigating the murder of my father, John Cornelius McGhee. So I want to share this incredible conversation with you. I had the honor of sitting down in with former homicide detective and current true crime consultant Stephen Keogh to get his thoughts on my dad's case and guidance on where I should go next with my efforts. And now, here's my conversation recorded live from Crime Con London 2024 with Stephen Keogh.

What? I have to start? It's your podcast. I'll be your Hi, everyone. name's Madison McGhee, and I have a podcast called Ice Cold Case. I am investigating my dad's murder, which is a cold case out of Ohio, which is a state in the United States. I realize I'm not in the US, so people might not know where that is. And yeah, I've been doing it since May of last year. And it's been a really interesting sort of process. I started just to sort of get the case out there. You couldn't even Google my dad's name. You would find absolutely nothing. So my goal was just to get the case in front of more people to hopefully put pressure on the police department. And then it sort of accidentally turned into an investigative tool.

People were sending in tips, and I was looking into them. And it sort of progressed from there. And I still am not sure what happened, but I think I'm a lot closer than I was. And so who's listened to the podcast here that knows it? So there's been a few that don't know the So first off, I just want to lay it out here. I've got so much respect for Madison. I investigated murders for 12 years. And the murder of JC, Madison's dad, just rings so many bells of murders that I've investigated in the past, where it's JC was involved in some criminality. And when you're investigating murders in that world, it's really difficult. And as you've seen, it's a bit of a cliche, but it gets called up wall of silence, we call it, the press call it over here, where you're speaking to people.

And often it feels like you're the only one thatcares And I've investigated murders where the person's been shot next to their brother, and the brother won't speak to us or their best friend. So what you're doing, I understand how difficult it is for the police, and you're doing it in a way where you're coming into it where you haven't got the resources of the police. You haven't got the access to the police file completely. You haven't got, you can't go and subpoena somebody and get information from them. So I just want to put out here first that I've got so much respect for you, Madison. And listen to this podcast and what you're doing, trying to find answers to JC's murder there. Yeah, I think it's brilliant what you've

Thank you. I have a lot of respect for you, too. This is very exciting for me because I haven't gotten a lot of help from the police. So I've done a lot of the legwork to just get information that they already had. There's also information that they didn't have, but they had, you know, case files and things that I wasn't able to get for a very long time. So it's lovely to sit with someone who has sort of that background and that knowledge to. Just see what what you think. Yeah, I mean, we can come at it from different angles. So first off, if we look at the police investigation, what happened at the time? So essentially what happened was there was a we would call it a robbery, a home invasion.

And your dad's sister lived next door. So some people broke into Aunt Pearl's house and they were looking for a They were looking for And then they went from Aunt Pearl's house, probably at the instigation of a main character in this, OmarNowOmar is Pearl's son. And from what Omar said, these home invaders then went to your dad's house and your dad must have come to the They were kicking the door, kicked it at least three times, and he was shot on the doorstep. So what you've got here is you've got two crime scenes, a crime happening here and a crime happening there. The police have turned up. And let's be honest, they haven't done a very good job of it. They didn't treat your aunt's house as a crime scene.

And the crime scene at your dad's house, your family were moving around in it within about two hours. So straight off, if you're investigating a murder, when you first turn up at one, those initial couple of hours and the work you do at a crime scene really are the make or break of whether or not you solve it. And if you don't get that right, it's going to be not impossible, but it's going to be very, very difficult. So the police in Ohio, essentially what they've done is they've put themselves on the back foot straight away by not treating these places as the crime scenes that they should do. Yeah, 100 percent. And now I'm sort of left with the reality, which is I think the only way this is going to get solved is through witness testimony.

And the witnesses in this case are wildly unreliable. And some we don't even know because there were four people allegedly doing this home invasion, but only one of them pulling thetrigger So, you know, in theory, three of them could probably get a pretty solid deal if they turn on the one. But who they are, if they will do that, we're still not sure. And yeah, without really any physical evidence, which really wasn't collected, the crime scene wasn't treated properly. It's nearly impossible to rely on any of that as a means to solve this case. So if you think about it logically, so you've got two crime scenes here, actually I'll talk about it, you've got more crime scenes, but two physical locations. You've got Aunt Pearl's house and you've got your dad's house where nobody went in.

For half an hour, these suspects were searching, ransacking a And so when it comes to murder, there are two different types of murder, essentially. You've got premeditated and ones that happen spontaneously. someone is going to a location knowing they're going to commit a murder, they're going to be much more careful. They might wear gloves, they might do things to mask, they might leave their phones at home, they might go in a stolen car. These people, I think, went there with the intention of committing a robbery, but not to kill your dad. That's my feelings on it. And if you look at it from that mindset, they would not have been careful inside your aunt's house. They would have left fingerprints, DNA.

One of the first murders I investigated, and this is why it resonates with me, back in 2009, it was exactly the same thing. There was this gang in South London that were going around robbing drug dealers, and they would arrange a meet and it would turn violent very, very quickly. And this was exactly the same case. They got to meet and I went back to a place in Greenwich, and the person who was selling the drugs decided, actually, I'm not going to let you rob me. And it all escalated. He got stabbed, he got murdered. So we turn up at the crime scene, and we start our usual thing. We've got the dead body, and we move the dead body. Underneath the body is a mobile phone.

It turns out that during the struggle, one of the murderers dropped his mobile phone that was registered to him. Under the dead body. And it is simply because they weren't going there to commit a They were going there to commit a crime that they believed the victim was never going to call the police about. So if you go there with that mindset, you can be much less careful. You're going to leave clues behind. And I find it immensely frustrating that the police, it was a traffic officer, turned up to her father'smurder A traffic officer dealt with the crime scene, and they dealt with it so badly that here we are, 20 odd years later, making it very, very difficult to solve the crime because they didn't do it as they should have done back then.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so. And this is an under- resourced area as well, on top of the fact that someone highly unqualified showed up. They just didn't have the resources. It was 2002. DNA had been introduced long before that. It was not new at the time. Swabbing for fingerprints and getting all of that is standard, even in 2002. And none of that was done. And to your point, I mean, they went over to my Aunt Pearl's house and weren't looking at it like this is the same group of people we're looking for. So the people who were here and committed a murder are the same people who were in this house. So in theory, I would almost think they would treat this like the murder scene and be swiping for fingerprints, looking for things, taping it off, because anyone who was in this house could have potentially been at this house.

And they just didn't do that. And it's so. It's such a weird set of circumstances. And I was so young at the time. I mean, I couldn't have really done anything, but I also didn't know that my dad was So there wasn't sort of anything that I could have said or asked or inquired about because I had no idea. But then it shouldn't be down to you. It's turning off. It should be the fact that they do the right job in the first place. So if you think back to that, when we talk about crime scenes as murder investigators, crime scenes will involve a person, a vehicle or a location. Your Uncle Omar was a crime scene. He should have been treated as So you've got questions as to Omar's involvement, as to was he stood with these men when JC was shot?

simple answer to that was if they tested him for gunshot residue, if you're stood next to someone that's firing a gun, you don't have to be the shooter. If you fire a gun here, I'm going to be covering it as much GSR as you are. And that would have been a very simple answer to where was Omar? Well, look at the GSR. What they literally do is count the number of And by counting the number of particles, you know whether someone has handled a gun or was there when it wasfired And it was something as simple as that would have answered the question that you've been trying to answer is where was Omar when my dad was shot? Yeah, yeah. And his whereabouts have been unknown for the entire time.

And it's so funny because he is alive and still lives next door to where my dad was killed. And he just won't say where he was or what he was doing. And even stranger, he changes clothes in between the time he makes the 911 call. Someone reports what he was wearing. And it's different than what he was wearing when the police showed up. So in the amount of time it took for them to arrive, he had fully changed clothes, which to me is very strange. It was also 6. 30, 6. 45 in the morning. So like, why would you need to change clothes? But yeah, there's so many signs that point to him having at least some sort of knowledge of what happened. Maybe involvement is a stretch, but he definitely knows who these people were.

I mean, they were in his house for 30, 45 minutes. He went outside with them at the very least, whether or not he was standing there still to be But he knows something. And I think that's sort of the biggest question mark, frustration thing to unlock with this case is where he was and what he And unfortunately, some of the key players in this case have passed away from other things or are in prison for life for other things. And he's just one of these people that's truly just living next door to where this happened and won't say anything. And the police have never really pushed on him. They never treated him as a suspect. It's just he's such a weird character in this story. And we talk sometimes still, but.

But you can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth, canyou That's the problem. So somebody was, we would call it charged here. I don't know what the technical term would be in America, but they went before a grand jury. And her uncle Omar was flip flopping around with his story so much that the prosecution got scared with the double double jeopardy law that if we lose it here, we're not going to get a second chance. They dropped it against him. Now, sometimes when you're when you when you're looking at a crime scene, you want to take in often what happens at the very beginning, what is being said by people, what is being done. And so Omar made a 911 call.

And on the call, the operator says to him, do you know these people? And he says, yes. And that's at a time when he's he's in that sort of fight or flight mode. He's emotions all over the place. He's stressed and he's not thinking about the consequences of what he's saying, thinking about what's going to happen in the And it's at that point you just know that that was at a point you were telling the truth. Yes, you did know who they were, but you refused to tell the police. You refused to tell Madison now. Yeah. And to go back to that 911 call, it is really interesting there. I think we had spoken before and there was a moment over the summer where I was like, whatever he said first must be the closest to the truth.

And so I went back to that 911 call and he mentions that the car had California license plates. And so I reached out to my sister who was in the house at the time and we still have a relationship and we And I said, who do we know in California who would have California plates? And then someone else reached out to my sister and said that someone had rented a car from Enterprise and that car had California license plates. And it was someone that I do believe was there at the time. And so now I've been on the phone with every Enterprise trying to find out if anyone has records of who rented a car in July of 2002, which.

But that comes down to the fact it shouldn't be you and the police could subpoena them, get the record, if they still exist, get the records. Where you've got, certainly in the UK, honestly, we've got something called data protection that would just get quoted at you and no one's going to come back with anything. So it's a bit off that you're having to do this, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, even from the beginning, I've said from jump that I shouldn't have to be doing this and I don't want to be doing this. It was never my goal in life to have a true crime podcast or be sitting on this stage as lovely as you are. I never wanted to do this. And it just got to a point where it had been 20 years.

My dad's case wasn't solved. No one cared. I had to fish through library records just to find newspaper articles about my dad's case, which there are only a And it was just weighing on me so heavily that I felt this urge to do it. But I shouldn't have to. It's not my job to do this. The police get paid by the taxpayers in Belmont County. And even for people who don't feel the same connection to the case as I do, if you live in this town, in theory, there's a murderer on the loose who you've never caught. You don't know who did this. And you should feel. Unsafe that no one did anything about it, even if you don't have a connection to my dad, it should irk you that your own protection police department didn't do anything about this because you live there and this is like your home.

And if you have a family and kids, you should want this solved. And no one was really talking about it. But when I put out the show, I got a lot of messages from people. Oh, I remember that. Or, oh, yeah, that we talked about this at school for like a few weeks and then no one brought it up ever again. And it just went away. And I wonder because of the situation, my dad's criminal activity, my dad was black and a very white community. And I wonder if this would have been handled differently if he was different and he wasn't who he was. See, from from my perspective, there's two things there. So I investigated a hundred or so murders in London.

And if I were to name the people in this room who they were, no one would have heard of them because the majority of people I investigate crimes for were involved in some kind of criminality. They put themselves in a position. And it's very difficult to get the buying from the press, from the media, to get the the attention you need to find witnesses, to find information. If it's a, I won't name names, but there's certain crimes have happened in this country where the media are falling over themselves to try and get information from you. Another young black lad in London gets murdered. It's really difficult. You're up against it to get get that attention. But I can't speak for the American detectives.

But here we we do not differentiate between each victim will get the same amount of For me personally, I used to really enjoy it. That's probably the wrong word saying I enjoy it. But professionally, I find them a real it was satisfying getting that result when you're going up against that wall of silence and their friends, their brother, their parents even won't engage. Years ago, there was this man called Norman Collier, I'm sure my age now, and he used to cut out older people in the room without talking about. So, so, so for me as an investigator actually really irks me that your family and the one that jumps out for me more than anybody is your 16, a 16 year old girl should not have to wake up in the morning, walk to her living room and find her dad there with shotgun wounds.

I mean, that must have had a serious impact on her. It can't not, can it? Yeah, my sister, I my heart breaks for her every day. And I see the impact that that moment had on her life forever. I mean, this happened now such a long time ago. And she was 16. So she's you know, I'm 29. And I think I'm a So my sister in my head is an just seeing her as I mean, she's a mother of three. And she's had a lot of trouble in her life as a result of this. And and the things that she's gone through. I mean, she's been in and out of She's had, you know, substance abuse issues. And it you know, she's a victim of circumstance. Right.

It's not her fault that this happened and that this is her life. She's just trying to cope with it as best as possible. And in the same way, I look at my dad now in a very different way as also a victim of circumstance. It's so easy to feel very compelled by these perfect victims in true crime podcasts and stories. And just to chalk up my dad is like, well, he made his bed and he made these decisions. But the more that I talk with people, even potentially the main suspect who I interviewed, my heart has so much empathy for this community and these people who are sort of thrust into the situation. If they had been born in a different town to different people, maybe they wouldn't have gone down this path.

I don't think that they were actively looking to like have a life of I think they were trying to And my sister is the And she's, you know, really struggled. And I'm very fortunate that I grew up removed enough from it that it didn't impact me in the same way. I have lots of other issues, but not those. So, yeah, it's it's really interesting how it impacts different people. And my sister, especially because she was I mean, we did not see each other for 20 years. I didn't see my sister at all from the day of my dad'sfuneral until the day I went to her house to interview her for my podcast. And I had never heard the story from her. We had never talked about it.

And we sat for eight hours at her kitchen table and had this very dark conversation. And to see her talk about it. It opened my eyes. I mean, for a while, she's my older sister. I sort of felt like it was her responsibility to reach out to me and sort of take care of me. We're 10 years apart. And to see her talk about it and really understand like this changed her life in such a drastic way. And, you know, she walked in, she heard the gunshot. She heard our dad hit the She was asleep in her bed and she waited 45 seconds. She was absolutely terrified. She had no idea what was going on. And she walked into the living room with nunchucks that she grabbed from her broom because she didn't know what was happening.

And she saw our dad laying on the floor and called 9- 1- 1. And the 9- 1- 1 call is heartbreaking to read the transcript of when she realizes that our dad is not breathing. And to go through that. Like, of course, she's, you know, trying to cope in any way that she can. But people would look at her and her life and go, oh, my God, she's just making horrible decisions. So the amount of empathy that I've sort of. Gained for other people in other situations that maybe I would have judged before, it's really opened my eyes to a lot of different things, but yeah, my heart really goes out to my sister. And something else you say on the podcast, which is something I've said many times, is that nobody deserves to die.

So, yes, JC was involved in But what happened to him? And that that. I'm a professional here, Chris, I can't work with this. And that's that's another frustration I see is like people in I'm not picking out anybody here, but people in the public, people in the media, people in the police pick and What attention, what service they give to a victim based on their. Based on their based on their background, based on their demographic. And that's completely wrong, isn't it? Every human being should have the same amount of attention on them. No matter what choices they've made in life. One hundred percent. Yeah, I mean, a big theme of the show is that there's no such thing as a perfect victim. We hear about people who go missing or are murdered.

And normally when they're beautiful white women, no one's talking about how they bullied someone in high school. Right. And everyone because nobody's perfect and everyone has done something to someone. I always say now more than ever, I'm the villain in someone's It just happens to be like everyone in my family. But everyone, everyone in this room is the villain in someone's And most people in here, if you were that would never be discussed. It just happens that my dad, that's how he's characterized. And a lot of victims are characterized that way as well. And it's unfortunate that that's how we look at it. We collectively, you know, not calling out anyone in this but just like in general, our minds go to that.

And we think that, you know, the beauty queen in high school doesn't deserve to but we don't really care about the drug dealer in our town. And in this case, that was my dad. And so the purpose of this show and the way that it's told is to characterize him in a different way. And that's why I never really wanted to be the center of the story. But it was almost inevitable because that was the only way people were really going to get invested. And if you saw J. C. McGhee as my dad, instead of this drug dealer turned confidential informant who was killed, maybe you would buy in. And thankfully, that happened. And now it's, you know, becoming more and more popular because of that.

And now the police are definitely feeling the But a lot of people ask, like, what can I do to help? And I just say, talk about my dad's case in the same way that you would go on TikTok or go on Reddit and talk about these other cases that seem really compelling because it's a mom of three who went missing and then they found her body. And oh, my gosh, her children, she didn't deserve this. You'll talk about it for hours on end and you'll start group chats about it. And you'll oh, there's an update. You're sending the article to all of your friends. Why not my dad? And so, yeah, it's it's really interesting. Just to see what gets attention and what doesn't and who gets the resources and who doesn't.

And, you know, I'm on a mission now. I get messages from people all the time who have similar stories to me, whose parent or son or nephew or just didn't get much attention. And it's heartbreaking because nobody deserves that. So I came into this case hoping that I could give some help. Obviously, I investigated a lot of murders. So cold cases. Let's talk about how we're going to solve a cold case. So essentially, there are three ways in which cold cases are And that is essentially a cold case is a cold case because the police have investigated and not solved it. So the first thing is to look at that police investigation. What didn't they do? What did they get wrong? What mistakes did they make?

That's the first way in which you're going to solve a cold case by reviewing their case and. Doing what they should have done in the first place or doing it differently. So that's the first way. You can't do that. There's nothing you can do to affect those police officers. You can't make them reinvestigate. I know you would like to have another agency come in for them to relook at it, but you can't affect that either. So for you and your investigations, that's out of the The next way in which you're going to solve a cold case is. Is it just me? It's literally just me, isn't it? It's advances in technology and advances in So in 2002, DNA was around. But the DNA of today is very much different.

It's much more so if they treated Aunt Pearl's place as crime scenes, they should have done. I've had literally no doubt that there would have been something in there. Well, OK, we did the DNA testing in 2002. If we retested it, suddenly something has come up again. You've got no power over that. There's nothing you can do. And in actual fact, because I haven't done it right in the first place, that's probably even out of the question now, because there aren't any of these exhibits lurking in the cupboard that we would do. We will retest them. And a lot of the cold cases that would come to us would be from that in the Metropolitan Police. No murder, no murder is gone. No murder is put away forever. It's always reviewed.

And the review is often what exhibits have we got? What advances have we got in science? Let's test them. And quite often you'd have a hit from something that will come up from years ago. You can't do that. So the third way in which you solve a cold case is from people. And generally what that would be quite often is a change in loyalties. I was friendly with you in 2002. Some things happen. I'm no longer friendly with you. Now, when I'm looking at the opportunities for you, now you've sat down, there's a man by the name of Daryl Smith who the police believe killed JC and Madison. If you haven't listened to one of these podcasts, listen to it, because it's him, it's him being recorded talking to Maddie.

Everybody seems to think he's done it. If he has, he's lying through his teeth to you, isn't heHe'slooked you,intheeyeandtold youIdidn'tkillyour dad. Now, the problem you've got in terms of them, they're never going to turn around and say, yes, I did it. Yes, I killed this. I killed JC. Or I was there and someone else killed him. They're not going to say that. For me, it's going to be going after the people that they told. Now, depending on who you talk to, there's three or four people there. They would have told somebody. There's somebody they told may have told somebody. So there's there's there's a number of people out there who know what's going on. For me, that's where you go.

It be it. And if you want to get people to talk to you, there is two ways to do it. And we use these methods in the police. You either go at them emotionally or you go at them with a reward. So you, Maddy, you're going to be the face of this. So your story and your emotions and how it's impacting you may pull on. somebody's heartstrings. And the other side to that, and I don't even know if this is something you've explored or whether it's even a possibility, is a financial reward. So for some other people it's going to be, I don't really care about Maddy, but actually 20, 000 seems like a good incentive for me to go and talk to him.

So when I'm looking at the case, that to me I think is the only avenue that's open to you, that you could explore without all those other Yeah, no, it's very interesting because it's hard to know, and I'm hoping that eventually these people sort of come out of the work, and some have, like Jill Templin is a good example, like who are these people? Where are they? How do you know? You know, I have sort of a list of who I think these four people are, and then going out to their web of, okay, they were dating this person at the time, who would they have told? Did they have any kids at the time? It's like this massive web that now I'm trying to piece together of people that I really don't know.

And yeah, it's tough, but then you get messages on Instagram from people like Jill, and you're like, oh, okay, maybe they'll talk. But then you hear, so Jill was Daryl Smith's girlfriend at the time, and Jill reached out to me and was very lovely and kind, and she shares a child with Daryl. So they have this very weird connection, but they aren't together, and they haven't spoken in, you know, several years. And she says that she was with him, and that it wasn't him. I don't know if I believe that, but it's hard when now all of these other people are sort of trying to cover their own tracks. But if I can get someone like Jill to say, oh, yeah, he told me what happened, that starts to open up that web.

And now I've you know, there's nicknames I've been hearing. Tone is a big nickname in the show and in this case. I think I've identified the name of who Tone is. So now I'm trying to figure out, okay, who was he connected to at the time? I know that Daryl Smith was a gang member, so trying to figure out who maybe is out now. There's so many avenues to take, right, of finding these people, but they're out there somewhere. It's so difficult, though. So what you're describing to me is what I used to do as a murder investigator. But I would have opened to me their telephone data, CCTV of where they lived, movements of their cars, their social media usage. It's so much open to you, but it's still difficult to solve these crimes.

You're not even doing it one arm time. You've got two feet and an arm. You've got both arms and you're blindfolded. It's that difficult how it is to you to get to that point where you can say I'm satisfied that I've identified my dad's killers. That's really difficult. Yeah, it's been really hard.And to me, you know, Daryl Smith was, that was crazy. I mean, this is someone who I had openly on a podcast said I thought killed my dad. And to hear from him on Facebook was really crazy. I woke up in the morning at six in the morning to a message that was like this long. And I was like, oh no, I thought he was in prison and I never thought he would listen to the show.

And he wanted to sit down and talk with me. And so I flew out to West Virginia and I met with him. We were sitting about this far apart from each other. And it's really tough because at the time he was very convincing. And there was a moment where for a long time I thought it was him. I mean, there were years before I even put out the show that I was looking up his record. He had been in and out of prison for other things. And I remember every time he would get arrested for something, like he was arrested for attempted murder. He assaulted a woman. And I remember going like, oh, that's that's the guy. That's the guy. And I was still looking into the case and hadn't put out the show yet.

And then I did. But then sitting across from him, there was just something in me that was like it wasn't him. And now it's it's weird when you start to lose trust in yourself. Up until that point, I had really trusted my gut. And I that's the whole premise of this show was based on me and my my gut feeling. Because unlike a detective, I can rely on that. I don't have to really have facts. I can follow leads based on like, oh, I have this feeling. Let me look down this path because I don't really have anyone to answer to. And no one else is doing this. So I can sort of be a little bit more like, OK, let me look at this or let me look down this avenue or I just have a weird feeling about this person.

Who is this person? And it was the first time I stopped trusting myself. And you can almost hear the change of quality and tone in the show for like a few episodes where I'm just so confused and I don't know what I believe. And so it makes me nervous even now talking to people and interviewing, you know, if I talk to Jill again or anyone else, like, am I going to trust myself enough to do it? And I'm getting really worried. And I think I'll get back on track because now Daryl is back in prison and doesn't know this, but I think he killed my dad. And. It's very weird now, I have to convince him that I don't think that so that I can keep talking to him.

And it's just a weird it's a weird situation to be in because now I feel like, did I miss my moment? I sat this far away from this man. I mean, what was I going to do? Like scream at him and say, I think you killed my dad. But but did I miss my moment in that moment to be like, I think you did it because I let him talk and I sort of let him think that I was like, oh, maybe it wasn't you or maybe that was the right thing to do. I don't know. I found that really interesting in your episode. I saw that I saw the change in your you were going in there in my mind. I'm going to be talking to the person that killed my dad.

Not many people have actually sat across a room from somebody that's committed a murder. And it's not as simple as going in and going, well, I'm going to see through their lies. I'm going to see they're going to give themselves away in some way, because people can sit and lie to you, to your face. And you you come out there and think, actually, I'm unsure now. And I've done it as a police officer. You've gone in, you've got the evidence. You go and speak to them. They're trying to talk their way out of it. And there's a part of you that ends up doubting it. Because in this country, people, when you interview them, tend to say no comment. They've got a right to silence. So they say nothing.

When they speak to you like, oh, maybe they are innocent because they've got no comment otherwise. And you do start to doubt yourself. And I saw that in you. But I think it's so rare for people to sit across the table from someone who's not even just killed your dad, who's committed a murder. What were you expecting? What were you hoping would happen? Was it that he would crumble in front of you or you'd spot the signs or what was it? Yeah, I knew he was going to say he didn't do it. And so that's it's shocking to me, even listening back, that like I was surprised because I knew that obviously that's what he was going to say, because he reached out to me.

He wasn't reaching out to me to like admit it in the middle of the which was where we met up. So I knew he was going to say he didn't do it. But I think I was hoping that my gut reaction would tell me like, oh, he's lying. Oh, he's not telling the truth. And also I sort of gave him an out because I thought to myself, OK, he's going to say he didn't do it. But he's also going to say, but I know something else and offer maybe up information to get me off of him and on to someone else. And that maybe even that information would help me identify additional people who were there. That was sort of my hope. But he went in and he was like, it wasn't me.

And I don't know what happened. And that was to me almost like, well, if you didn't want me to think it was you, you would just offer up a new name. So maybe it really wasn't you. And maybe you really don't know what happened. And. I don't know, and you know, he went on and on about the police sort of out to get him, which made sense, especially in this town. He's been framed for other things. I don't know. It was just a really compelling. And in my mind, this is so silly. I'm like, oh, you know, white serial killers want to meet their victims, kids, black gang violence. People probably aren't doing that right. Like, I don't know. It just seems like such a Ted Bundy thing to do, to like sit in the library with me.

And like I'm like this, Daryl Smith is no Ted Bundy. You know what I mean? So it just felt very strange for him to want to sit across the table from me as a black man, looking at a black woman, knowing sort of his identity and what town he comes from and the community he comes from. Why would he sit across the table from me if he killed my dad? But that's he probably did kill my dad. I don't know. It's just such a weird my mind still to this day is so twisted by the whole thing. If you look at it from his point of he if he was the one that killed JC, he's been for 20 plus years. He's got away with it. I got away with murder.

But then suddenly, Maddie's come along with his podcast. It's gaining traction. It's gaining publicity. And you'll be surprised how many criminals have got the arrogance in them that they can just talk their way out of it. I can talk my way out of this. I know what to say. So, yes, he might sound convincing, but that doesn't mean that he's telling the truth. It just means he's a good liar. Yeah. And I think he's a great liar. And I mean, it's so weird at the end. I mean, this whole situation is so bizarre. But at the end of our interview, we hugged. It's crazy. I mean, but that's that's how he's manipulating you, regardless of whether or not he's telling the truth.

You went in there expecting that I'm now facing the person that's killed my dad and he's cuddled you. I mean, that that tells I've never met a man regardless of regardless of anything. He he's by through his words alone. Yeah. He was able to switch you from someone going in there. I'm going to catch this man who's killed my dad. So I'll give him a cuddle. I mean, that speaks volumes, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think there is this element, too, of, you know, his story and his background. I saw so much of my dad in him because they are very similar. I mean, Daryl is a drug dealer who had been in and out of prison and has children and, you know, sort of, again, a victim of circumstance.

And in a lot of ways, I was like, I didn't want to believe that he did it. But at the end of the day, somebody killed my dad and he is the main suspect. And he there's so many signs that point to it being him. But at the end of the day, I think it's this weird moment I had of going into that interview and also the second installment of the show, which is episodes. 10 through 18. I had this weird moment because the show got popular. And when I first released the show, I thought no one would listen. And this was sort of like me just talking into the airwaves for closure and peace and no one would really care.

And a lot of people started to And you open yourself up to a lot of criticism when people are listening, the more popular it gets. I think for a while we had, like, five stars on Apple Podcasts because it was, like,allmyfriendsrightAndthenyouopenitupandpeoplelistenandthey'relike oh, I've got some thoughts on this. And then it's like, you just see the number go down and you get weird reviews. And it's sort of this weird moment of, like, oh, people are listening to this and they hate it. And, you know, there's a whole Reddit thread about me and this now and I shouldn't read it and I read it every morning.

But so one of the critiques was that I didn't look at the other side of this and that I was so adamant it was Daryl Smith and I never looked at anyone else or his side of the story. And I went into part two. The whole theme of part two was, like,there'stwosidestoeverystorySogettingthisDarylinterviewwaslike huge for the show because it was, like, okay, everybody, you think I'm one- sided. Well, let's hear from Daryl. And so I almost went in hoping it wasn't him so that I could be, like, see, I'm open to other people and other suspects and other things. And I almost let, like, public opinion, in the same way that Iwanted public opinion to help me, I almost let it sway me in a weird way.

And, yeah, I don't know. And now I couldn't care less what other people think. But it's fun to read. The comments are very funny and I screenshot them and I have it saved as fan mail on my phone. But I've made it funny now. But in the moment, it really impacted me and sort of steered me down a direction that now I've luckily reverted back to, like, where I was before. But I was so worried about what other people thought and that I wasn't giving him, you know, the right amount of opportunity to speak his mind and speak his piece. And there were other people that, I don't know, I was very confused at the time. But now I'm coming for you, Daryl Smith. One of the things that really interests me is, you use this word, I don't tend to use it when it comes to victims' families, but you used the word closure.

What would you consider closure? What is it, obviously the pinnacle of everything you're doing is that the person or the people that killed your dad go to prison and face justice. How far up that scale would you be satisfied with? That's a good question. The answer to that question changes every day. When I first started this, I was talking to someone and they asked me, what does that look like for you? And I remember just saying, oh, if I can go to bed at night and know who killed my dad, that'll be enough. And then there was a moment where I got really close to thinking I knew and it was like, well, now I need them to, that knowing is not enough, I need more.

And then when I got really confused, it was like, well, now I just wanna know again. It sort of changes all the time. But I think it's just one of those things, I'm not sure I'll ever know until it happens. I think one day I'll wake up and I'll go, okay, that was enough. And I don't know what that is, but whenever it happens, I'll know. And I think that will be evident based on, right now this case and my dad is very all- consuming and is my whole life and my job and it's everything to me. And I think the moment that I start to pivot out of that, I'll sort of know, okay, I've done everything I can do. And I think I'm getting close to that.

And part three of the show, which comes out early next year does feel like the culmination of the finality of this for me. And I'm not sure, but hopefully I'll let you know soon. And something else that jumps out for me when I'm listening to the podcast is the dichotomy you've got between the police that have messed up JC's murder investigation are the same people, are the only people that can get you the real, if you're gonna use the word closure, that you can get. So that's a real balance, isn't it? In your relationship with them. I can imagine you're holding back on what you wanna say and how you really feel about them to, I need to keep these people on side.

Yeah, it's been a very big struggle and a very fine line to Because yeah, at the end of the day, I'd love to go on my show and just say that I think the police totally messed this up and are the worst people ever in this case. And unfortunately, if this goes to trial, I need them. And Belmont County officials sort of in general, the prosecutor's office has to prosecute the They have to decide that there's enough evidence from the Belmont County Sheriff's They all sort of work together in order to get this to a point where it's going to trial and potentially there's a conviction. I can't do that. And it's tough because the reality is they did a bad job.

So how do I tell that story and explain, I have to do this because they did a bad job, but also say, but I need their help and I need them at the end of the day. And I think, not to really like tease the show, but part three is sort of also addresses this. And I, again, as much as I shouldn't have to do this and don't wanna be doing this, here I am. I have to just give them everything I have and everything I've found and sort of leave it up to them and see what they do with it. And I think the more people that are listening and the more people that are sort of invested in this case, the more pressure it puts on them to say, I guess we really have to do something about this.

And so, yeah, kind of going back to like what people can do and what they can do, it's like put pressure on them to do something. And then maybe we close that loop and something gets done and I will give them everything that I have. And then it's sort of up to them. And ultimately that's all you can do, isn't it? So investigating murder is like a jigsaw. You might give them the piece that will bring it all together because they think Daryl Smith killed your dad, don't they? Yeah, they do. And that's sort of the only thing we agree on. And other than that, it's like, everything else is a big mess. But yeah, I think that we're on the same page with that.

And I think if we can find those elements of similarity and common ground, we can move forward from there. And Daryl Smith was just arrested for something else and he's facing a lot of time behind bars. So there's a lot of opportunity to talk to him and see what he might say because he still thinks that, I think he's We won't tell him otherwise, don't I don't even know where he is right now. So I wouldn't even know where to lead you to talk to him. But yeah, I think that there's possibilities here for us to get on the same page and figure out what happened. I think we're opening up to questions now, Chris, isn't it No, we're at time, Oh, we're at Oh, Ralph, was that 45 minutes? We opened about 10 minutes ago. I'm really sorry, guys. Oh, so sorry. Oh, sorry, sorry. Okay, well, I'll be at my table. I don't know where Steve will be, but I'll be at my You can come ask me questions there. Thank you so much. Thank you.

You've been listening to Crime Conversations recorded live at CrimeCon London 2024, partnered by True Crime. For more information on future CrimeCon events, visit crimecon. co. uk. Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you'd like to join me this June 7th and 8th of 2025 at CrimeCon London, you can use my code ICECOLDCASE10 for 10% off your ticket. I'll see you soon, right here, wherever you're listening, for part 3 of Ice Cold Case.